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Interview with Pentax at Photokina - The Video

Just posted - video interview with 3 Pentax Ricoh representatives! · 09-22-2012 · By PF Staff in Photokina 2012
Interview with Pentax at Photokina - The Video

On September 19th, 2012, we had the opportunity to interview three Pentax representatives at the Photokina trade show in Cologne, Germany.  The gentlemen we spoke to were Mr. André Dierickx, Managing Director of Pentax Ricoh Imaging Europe, Mr. Shigeru Wakashiro, leader of the Pentax Product / Camera System Planning Team of Pentax Ricoh Imaging Japan, and Mr. Genichiro Takaoka, also a part of the Product / Camera System Planning Team.  The full video of the interview is available later in this post.

Questions were asked in English by Adam Oest, administrator of, and repeated in Spanish by Mika Cruz, administrator of the Spanish community  Mika's help was integral to the coordination and preparation of the interview, and we'd like to extend a special thank-you to him as well as his Spanish Pentax community!  Mr. Dierickx replied to our marketing-related questions in English, while Mr. Wakashiro replied to our technical questions in Japanese, which were then translated into English by Mr. Takaoka. In the interview, we allude to a letter that we sent to Pentax about the prospect of making a Pentax full-frame DSLR.  You can learn more about the letter here.

Wakashiro (left) and Takaoka (right)

In total, we asked Pentax 19 questions, including the "full-frame question", of course.  The video interview lasts 33 minutes, and subtitles are available.  Read on to watch the video interview and to learn more about how the actual interview went!  Here is a quick summary of the questions:

  • Which of the 9 new products announced at Photokina is the most important to Pentax Ricoh?
  • What's new in the K-5 II and Q10?
  • In what areas is the SAFOX X autofocus system going to be better?
  • Why does the K-5 II lack the PRIME M processor?
  • How will the image quality of the K-5 II and K-5 IIs differ?
  • How does HD coating differ from SMC, and will it be replacing SMC?
  • What cameras / users are appropriate for the 560mm lens?
  • Are there plans to more significant DSLR upgrades for current Pentax users?
  • What happened to that mysterious lens with a protrusion that we saw at CP+?
  • Is any of the technology found in the Ricoh GXR going to be used in Pentax cameras?
  • How about a Pentax K-mount module for the GXR?
  • Will the Pentax K-mount ever be "de-crippled" (i.e. will the aperture ring coupler be restored?)
  • How has the Q system evolved since last year?
  • Will the Q's 1/2000s flash sync make its way into other cameras as well?
  • How well as the K-01 been received by customers?
  • When is the Pentax full-frame finally going to be announced?
  • Do you have anything else to say to our users?

We were very happy with how thorough Pentax's replies to our questions were, and after the interview, we started to appreciate Ricoh's contribution to Pentax Ricoh Imaging even more, even if they are still in their infancy.

Pentax at Photokina

The interview took place near the Pentax booth at the event.

Interview Room

To start things off, we gave the Pentax representatives the results of a lens survey conducted by forum member Ron Hendricks, and we spent several minutes discussing a prioritized list of products/areas that our members wanted to see Pentax Ricoh improve upon in the future.  We also discussed our site statistics and member base in considerable detail.  The representatives seemed to be very interested in all that we had to say, and they collected hardcopies of all the materials that we had shown them.

During our initial chat, we brought several user-submitted issues to light, such as the lack of a Pentax distributor in India.  Pentax told us that this is well-known to be a tough market, but that there are plans on changing the situation in the near future.

Andre Dierickx of Pentax Europe

We then proceeded to the main portion of the interview.  Subtitles will soon be made available for the video in both English and Spanish.  In order to get the video to you as soon as possible, we decided to use the superior audio from our sound recorder rather than focusing on releasing subtitles.  We will also be posting the full interview transcript and commentary next week. We hope you enjoy the video!

Photokina 2012 Video Interview with Pentax Ricoh Imaging

After the interview, we presented our interviewees with two posts containing member-drawn Pentax cartoons from  The cartoon pictured below, which depicts the current (full-frame) gap in the Pentax digital camera lineup, was met with a great deal of enthusiasm and smiles from the Japanese representatives.  Left-to-right, we have the point-and-shoots, K-30, K-5, nonexistent full-frame, and 645D.

Pentax Full-Frame Cartoon

We also gave all three representative a shirt and mouse pad as a token of our appreciation...

Andre's Shirt

...and ended by taking a group photo with both posters:

Photokina 2012 Interview with Pentax

We believe that the interview itself ended on an extremely positive note: knowing that Ricoh has made Pentax (now Pentax Ricoh Imaging) so much more open to individual user feedback is a sign of Ricoh's desire to make the loyal Pentax user base happy, as well as their intention to truly strengthen the Pentax camera systems.

Thank you Pentax Ricoh!

Further commentary on the interview will be posted together with the transcript next week.

PF Staff's avatar
About the author: Various writers regularly contribute articles to the Pentax Forums homepage blog. More recent articles are published under each author's forum username. We hope you enjoy our guides and news coverage!

Tags: pentax ricoh imaging, pentax interview, pentax full-frame, dierickx, wakashiro, takaoka

More Posts in Photokina 2012 | More Posts by PF Staff

Next Story: Pentax Q10 Photokina Report - What's New

Previous: The Pentax K-5 II / K-5 IIs Report

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dmytty [Delete] Sep 25th, 2012 9:59PM

Much ado about nothing.

goldenarrow [Delete] Sep 24th, 2012 8:10PM

For those of you who cannot understand translators: Interesting discussion about coatings. Premium lenses can have both Aerobright and HD coatings, like the 645D lenses. K-5 II is incremental improvement focused on still images and user feedback (including an opinion that the sensor engine in K-5 is superior to the M engine for K-30 for still pics). Extending DSLR lines including K-mount pro camera will be the future as well as technology exchange between Ricoh and Pentax engineers. They backpeddled on the crippled k-mount question (they did not seem interested in changing it). They smiled a lot when asked about full frame.

goldenarrow [Delete] Sep 24th, 2012 7:24PM

Canon and Nikon consumer cameras are even more cheap feeling, light, and plasticky. And what about the allergy alert about one of the Canon models grip causing allergic reactions in some people (talk about using cheap and toxic materials)! I would rather own a Pentax, just based on look and feel.

ijustshotu [Delete] Sep 24th, 2012 1:54PM

I'm losing confidence in Pentax products. They not only look cheap but feel cheap as well. I own a K20D, which I love, and have been wanting to add a second camera but at this point it won't be a Pentax. Too bad!

MrPetkus [Delete] Sep 24th, 2012 9:23AM

Thanks, Adam, for the interview. However, for the amount of time it took to release it I'm disappointed that there is no transcript. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't want to watch a video with bad audio.

chiane [Delete] Sep 24th, 2012 8:06AM

Tried like 3 times to listen to this and understand it and finally gave up. The only thing I took away was, Pentax is slowly studying things that everyone else already has to market. Am I the only one that feels like they are always playing catch-up?

JXL [Delete] Sep 24th, 2012 3:40AM

The whole FF discussion is not about whether the present photograph enthusiast consumer wants to buy a FF, but whether the future consumer wants one. The FF technology will become cheaper in the coming 5 years and at a certain point will hit a price mark where it becomes interesting for enthusiast consumers. If Pentax misses out on the expertise they can acquire by developing a FF for the current minority, then it is unlikely that they will be able to introduce a future cheap FF camera that can compete with models from the other brands. So at the end it's not about a FF camera now, but about getting the expertise for the future.

jchengj [Delete] Sep 24th, 2012 12:04AM

Once again, thanks Adam. But after watching the interview, I want the a99 more than ever

TourDeForce [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 10:33PM

Terrific that they made themselves available! I have got to get to one of these Photokina events and shake a few hands.

goldenarrow [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 10:16PM

I like what xmeda had to say about the true cost of a FF system, not just the camera body. Yup, if you are a pro, then it makes sense, and I am fine with that. Just don't take away the compatibility with FF lenses from the APS-C body. I don't need a camera company that bankrupts me. I do not make a living from this, just a hobby, but an important and useful one.

robertopentaxman [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 4:13PM

Thank you Adam and Mika for the exhausting effort!

Pepe Guitarra [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 4:09PM

Can you label who is who in the photo? Thanks,

mikeuk [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 2:41PM

Interesting to hear that Schneider is developing 3 super prime lenses for high megapixel FF dslr and Pentax K mount is included on their list. Even in the industry it is widely expected that a FF from Pentax is imminent.

robertopentaxman [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 1:40PM

100% agree with pentaxior.

pentaxior [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 1:02PM

gether to reach higher rankings.
“Let others speculate on earning much fashion-freakmoney, we keep manufacturing topquality and we need each other to keep us away from whims.”

What comes out is not far from what they allready did for years. Maybe only a slight step backwards first, and I hope far better than before afterwards.

By the way: depth in field increases with short focal lenses, which is common to small sensors. A cellphone is a me-too snapshotcamera, you only get the average from it.

pentaxior [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 12:58PM

I have worked with Mamyia 645, Rolleiflex 3.5, Mamyia C33, viewcamera’s on casettes of 4x5”and 5x7”. And Pentax MX, Pentax K200D.
The last camera’s I bought (on purpose) where Pentax MZ6 and MZ3, indeed second hand.
These camera’s make it possible to shoot intüitive, no mistakes before caused by menus to set.
Shooting on film forces one to set one’s brain at work, shooting digital makes one lazy. Practice is the place where camera’s, lenses, light, features, props must come together to make the shot you foresaw in your mind. Nothing else, exept the man behind the camera, counts. A brandname means nothing in this view.

There is just another thing around this discussion: proud, and fear to have chosen the wrong.
When Nikon or Canon announce a photocamera wich is able to make video’s, no other brand likes to stay behind. To my opinion you better take a videocamera in stead of a photocamera which also does video. The photocamera is invented to make nothing but photo’s, and it has the best facilities to do so.
When Nikon or Canon announce a photocamera with very high ISO setting, no other brand likes to stay behind. To my opinion you better take more light to your photoset instead of searching the best composition/view under bad lightconditions. You are not going to see much of it.
The next camera will also pay bills, send sms, sing a song for children to go asleap, as long as public buys such a thing. It has nothing to do with your photographyc set of mind.

I don’t believe in short planned development only to keep up with competitors. When they jump into a ditch, does that mean you do the same? Why?
I believe in solid build camera’s, with or without full frame, at last to get the best a camera can, fitted to the best a lens can do.
Pentax and Ricoh are from the same blood, possible they searched each other to withstand the pressure from competitors. Also possible to see their true future in this battlefield. They melted their power toge

NewTake [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 8:53AM

and to all those who say no one could tell a difference between a shot taken w/a FF or one taken with APS-C, have never experienced a FF before. Take a photo in low light where ISO 3200 is needed, and tell me you don't see a difference. Also, depth of field is much more pronounced with FF. And to those who say it is not the camera but the photographer.... why are you using a dslr at all, why not use your cell phone since it is not the equipment that matters.

TaoMaas [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 8:49AM

Ricoh has had the rights to the Pentax K-mount for decades. Why not build something that features an uncrippled K-mount...even if it's only a GXR module? Creating a GXR module is probably the cheapest way to gauge the market for an uncrippled K-mount product. If it out-sells the's your sign.

NewTake [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 8:43AM

I had and have no doubt that FF is coming, I just would like an approximate when. If I knew it was 2+ years away I may think about the k5 II w/out the aa filter. Since it is unknown I have to hold off on any further Pentax bodies. I wonder if others are in this same boat and Pentax not giving an idea of when it would be released will actually hurt business, if it is in fact 2+ yrs down the road.

LFLee [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 8:33AM

Some people are saying Pentax can't make FF because no modern FF lenses for Pentax ... this is strange because isn't that there are few modern MF lenses as well, but we do have a 645D?

Just strange logic. I don't know, but I think Pentax will definitely sell more FF camera than the MF 645D?

Nebulous [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 5:29AM

in regards to FF, the response given sounds more like they are being forced into it by the competition rather then listening to their users; which is sad because with the backwards compatibility of the lenses you would think FF would be a non issue or even a requirement.
Also if the Prime M is more video orientated then why are the video features on the k-01 and k-30 so lack luster with no uncompressed 4:2:2 out on the HDMI? this takes less processing power then compressing the video stream to h.264 and writing it to a card hence why all the new Nikon's have it.
My camera upgrade time is in the spring so unless Pentax gives me something to look forward to im going to have to jump ship. Since i shoot both photo and video for a living i make all my cameras pay for them selves many times over and what has been shown just IS NOT an upgrade i cant justify the cost. I dont use the AF (only own 1 AF lens) and the screen glare isnt all that different from any other camera. While getting rid of the AA filter in the IIs is fascinating to me its not going to really make a difference for what i do leaving me like many in limbo.
My hope was to maybe see a FF under glass with a release to market somewhere in the 6-10 month range to help keep people from jumping ship with the plethora of other announcements from everyone else.
the only thing that interested me from Pentax's announcements was their new lens coating, but since i dont bother with new lenses as they are annoying for video, this too is useless to me.
sadly the more i look at what Pentax has announced the more unhappy i am with them.
/end semi-rant
sorry i just got off a 20 hour gig (with my k-5) saw this and was hoping for something reassuring; guess not.

Tord [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 4:21AM

I will most likely upgrade to FF within a year, thus it will be bye-bye Pentax for me, unless a 645D Lite would appear, as the regular one is just too expensive for me!

robin48gx [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 3:57AM

no FF. no aperture priority with old lenses. hmmmmmm bye bye pentax.

kadajawi [Delete] Sep 23rd, 2012 1:59AM

Hm. Haven't watched the video since the Japanese translator is a bit hard to understand amongst all the noise, so I'll just wait for the transcript. However as to FF... is it really that important? The only reason why I would go for FF is wide angle lenses and better low light performance/dynamic range (for work though all I need is wide angle, the camera sits on a tripod anyway). Don't care at all about resolution. 6 MP will do fine.

fearview [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 11:11PM

23:02 -- thanks for asking about non crippled mounting. that was my question in shoot out thread. now i know. they wont introduce that thing back. ok. im move on.

Jatcat [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 9:50PM

Great job, Adam - appreciate your efforts and looking forward to the transcript !!

sandilands [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 9:08PM

So glad it was clear that the FF question originated from only the small number of pentax forum members who are clamoring for a full frame camera. That was stated; right?

Trapezoid645 [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 8:54PM

What's wrong with today's (Sony) 24MP sensor (in imaginary P FF) and FF load of FA*, A* and some DA* glass?

There is really no apparent need to develop more than FF body now for interested crow, that is... I certainly would get Pentax FF (D600 class or better) for K28mm shift too and other glass..TODAY! And to learn gear's (resolution) limits and best potential is up to a user, as always. So, it's about a choice.

LFLee [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 8:41PM

xmeda, "NEW LENSES: DA10-20/4, DA20/2, DA24/2, DA28/2, DA16-50/2.8 II with internal zoom and faster reliable DC motors, DA30/1.4, DA50-150/2.8, DA85/1.4, DA100-400/5"
-- thats quite some DA lenses to cover, but we still have APS-C camera, don't you think that kind of defeat your argument? :D

twitch [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 7:24PM

"It's in the air for the mom[ent?]". I guess that was the FF (non) announcement we were wait for. LOL.

xmeda [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 4:10PM

Wake up. FF is not just the "FF camera". That is the least thing. You need lenses. And as today's FF sensors are reaching 40MPix, you'll need damn good FF lenses to start FF system. These would not be cheap. There are many people demanding FF camera, but would you buy $2000+ camera and lenses like (example) DFA*24-70/2.8 for $2500 and DFA*70-200/2.8 for $3000 to get just a slightly bit better pictures than K5II with DA*16-50 + DA*50-135 can provide easily?
Is it worth? Think about it. Think about that FF hype..

Some say, that there already are FF lenses.. ok, but just very few of then can provide hi-res and flat image suitable for hi-res sensor covered with microlenses. That is different surface than film. Even mighty FA35/2 (which is damn sharp) would in fact struggle in border image quality on FF sensor. Look at Nikon D800 and inspect results closely. You'll find gigantic images, lots of MBytes, but only central parts of image have desired details and resolution. Borders are weaker and suffer from diffraction. Even with $5000 lenses. That is the limit which must be considered. Especially when you run camera making company, which is way behind canikons in sales. They can afford to continue in megapixel war using film sized sensor and people will buy those even if they have weak lenses, because they want bigger images (which in fact have barely some more optical resolution when compared to 24mpix APS-C. APS-C sensors are cheaper to produce, faster to read and clean electronic charge and they use the finest central part of film format image circle, so even with old film lens the sensor's microlenses and photosites are quite content with image provided by lens.

All I need is 20Mpix APS-C with 10fps capable of clean images at iso 12800, rugged body, fast accurate AF, dual SD slot, more programmable buttons and NEW LENSES: DA10-20/4, DA20/2, DA24/2, DA28/2, DA16-50/2.8 II with internal zoom and faster reliable DC motors, DA30/1.4, DA50-150/2.8, DA85/1.4, DA100-400/5

dominikkolendo [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 4:04PM

i checked out pf's coverage to see if pentax released a k5 with unlimited hi continuous shooting buffer (thats the only upgrade i would ever need) and i forgot how much 99% of this community treats this company like their favorite football team, rooting for the wins and yelling "c'mon!!" at the misses. it's like listening to a bunch of iphone afficianados delve into the finer points of how well siri understands hard "s's.

rae2 [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 3:45PM

Two points.
The myopic focus on technological delvelopment (eg FF) makes me laugh. I'd bet a month's pension there isn't ONE person on this planet who could see or sense the difference in a properly composed, exposed and printed 8x10 whether it came from any of the "K" cameras, or this hypothetical FF extravaganza.

My second point has to do with the photograph of the "group photo with both posters." This image could just as successfully been captured by a bottom-of-the-line no-name CELL PHONE than any of the Pentax systems. Clearly it's not the camera that produces a worthwhile photograph - it's what the photographer does with camera that counts. This photo couldn't be more uninteresting and it certainly doesn't do anything for the Pentax Ricoh image.

For cripes' sake, people... quit making dozens of quirkily-named "me-too" models and make ONE good one... and then stay with it until some advancement worth talking about justifies making a change. I have and love my K200d. My partner has the K20d. We have NO plans to "upgrade" since the images we're getting now are to our complete satisfaction. This might not be good for a business model that insists on constant upgrades and "progress" but it's good for us consumers. If you want to change something, change this nonsense of bringing out a bunch of "new" models every year which produce images indistinguishable from last year's "new" models?

igor [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 3:35PM

I highly support Belcik's idea - it's brilliant! Why not produce a "lite" version of the 645D ??? Big sensor + K-mount .

pentaxior [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 2:37PM

It is all a matter of money. Developing takes money as water flows. Ricoh is now owner of Pentax, a serious con-collegue almost in all aspects. Hoya was not. Samsung was’nt either.
Choices must be made, decisions too. Bills allways must be payed. Will Ricoh continue development, aside Pentax doing the same payed out of the same wallet? A wrong decision about full frame, with its truth in near future, costs more than doing nothing at all, especially when sales and development on APS-C still coninues. However, more models complicates manucfaturing, not every new thing is always better.

The first full frame was withdrawn, the grounds to that were at that point not to overcome. Maybe progress in the whole field of dslr’s is going too fast, Pentax is not the only one.
The full frame market is a small market, existing mostly from professionals and prosumers.
Their camera takes far more money, so users need to earn the investment back.
The APS-C market, with its lower quality request, is far bigger, with the right marketing background it grows.

Who pays is particular: Ricoh takes over some of the typical Pentax knowledge (right now) to have its own money maker. Pentax is leaving to the APS-C, the 645 type is to be continued as long as the market asks. Two brands, one falls. Because of refinement on the sensor, same size far more pixels, full frame is no issue no more.

The same enemy: Pentax and Ricoh check their reseach to pick the best, develop the same technology, but interprete it different. APS-C keeps all the avantages of cost-cutting and is increasing, more pixels on the same size. Pentax decreases in models of APS-C camera’s to only a few, full frame is now the misson, 645 piggybacks. Ricoh increases in models of APS-C.

Devide the spoil: Pentax leaves APS-C, only makes full frame and 645, Ricoh takes APS-C over and completes the line, or vice versa. Full frame is no issue, APS-C is equal to it. Lenses and more are interchangeabl

BB_Zone28 [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 1:50PM

thumbs up!

photoman1 [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 1:45PM

does anyone know where the comics are on the internet??

Biro [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 1:18PM

There's a lot of "We're studying that." in this interview. I remain very optimistic about Pentax under Ricoh's stewardship. But, honestly, they didn't actually tell us much here. I understand their reluctance to reveal their product plans to the competition. But I hope they'll be providing some strong hints to the faithful as those new products move closer to release. And, Pentax, please know this: I love the GXR but I'm not going to buy one until a K-mount module is introduced. And when I say K-mount module, I mean one with auto-focus. There is no reason on God's green Earth that you can't supply this.

shakumar [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 1:03PM

With D600, 6D, and A99 now vying for "the lightest smallest FF offering", the question is no longer "FF or not". And Pentax is behind the curve. They better catch up quick. But with the combined experience from both Ricoh and Pentax, I'm optimistic that they will yet surprise us. Let's say a full-frame Ricoh GRD :)

Belcik [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 10:01AM

From the series of "If I were Pentax"...
Since there is so much pressure I would try not to make a FF. But create a FF+, something that is not expected, solution in the middle between 645D and K5. But I have no clue to what degree it is feasible :)

PentaxSX [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 9:21AM

Agree with class A, what they've said is they are studying FF, but nothing concrete.
The chance to see a FF at CP+ 2013 is really not that high, maybe another two years.
I am not going to up grade to FF unless it can be made similar to K5's size.
I am more interest in more focusing points, it actually means each AF point has lesser area to cover, hence more accurate focus.
Also I can't wait to see K5IIs' review to find out the improve on IQ and how bad is the colored moire on K5IIs.

nick52 [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 9:03AM

Adam, may we pronounce your last name like "West"? You are my hero! Hahahaha

zosxavius [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 6:49AM

Class A: Pentax Ricoh knows it can't avoid FF any longer. Hell, fuji is now making a FF xpro. Pentax knows it cannot be the only dslr maker that does not have a full frame, m43s (olympus, panny) notwithstanding. Its coming. Look at all the smiles on their faces at that question. They have big things in store. This is a sea change from the hoya days. A lot of ricoh fans seem pretty rabid. Ricoh has a history of continuously upgrading their cameras via firmware. There are a lot of diehard grd fans and most people that try the gxr seem too really like it. I've always liked ricoh. They seemed to make compacts aimed at photographers. I think this is going to be a good thing in the long run. Its funny. I never realized adam was so young. Thank you adam. If ricoh is committed to listening to us, then it is rather fortunate that this forum exists.

noVICE [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 5:57AM

Great interview! Thank you for all your efforts. For those who are having trouble with the video go to YouTube and search " pentax interview photokina " should be first one on the results.

Class A [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 4:44AM

Summary: "No concrete plans for an FF, at the moment."

But it was encouraging to hear that Ricoh has a strong history of listening to their end users.

Alizarine [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 4:41AM

thanks freddykrueger and ecoldk for the fix on the link. found it now

EcoLDK [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 4:04AM

in youtube, after /, enter thus: watch?v=OhD5zmJ79Fo
it's here.

freddykrueger [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 4:01AM

It's indeed not working, however you can find the video at youtube . com/watch?v=OhD5zmJ79Fo (remove the spaces)

ENicolas [Delete] Sep 22nd, 2012 3:07AM

"This video has been removed by the user"