[Wired]

This is something our local professional community is having issues with, mostly because of the cost and how it rewards the illegal operators.


A little back story for those that may not be informed:

To accept money in exchange for services (in this case photography) you are required to have a business operators licence. If you do not have said licence and are caught, the fines can be quite hefty including a ban from operating at that site, or even the entire municipality, and they can even deny you the licence if you apply for it later on down the road. It is also a required document to get insurance which is a whole new can of worms that anyone who is accepting money for photography services should have.

Now that we have that out of the way.

Something that we are dealing with locally is that every municipality wants photographers to be licenced, and there is no provincial licence that covers all the municipalities. Now, your licence is issued for the city your "office" is located in. For most of us this is our home. So for some of us that may live in a smaller satellite municipality that means we need to have a licence for our city/town as well as the main city. This can be expensive... especially for traveling shooters who may get hired at other cities throughout the province.

Some of these municipalities offer a day licence, while others require you get a licence for the entire year! Specifically where I live there are two national parks that have municipalities that require not only the municipal licence but a parks licence, plus the entry fee to get into the national park! Thats three fees you need every time you shoot in these VERY popular locations (Banff and Jasper national parks in Alberta, Canada)

We tried the loop hole of signing the contract, providing a local shoot in your licenced city, client picks up the images from your studio, etc. etc. and you only do one part of the shoot outside of your municipality... nope, thats a breach.

How does the laws apply in your state/province?

FYI, my yearly licence for the city I live in cost me around $1000 including all registration and lawyer fees. my "renewal" will be around half that they say.



The big argument that came up was that how come a flower shop in the satellite city can deliver flowers to another satellite city and not have to have a licence in that city?

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Last edited by Wired; 08-28-2014 at 10:55 AM.

[nomadkng]

the closest analogy I can think of, here in the US are contractors. If I'm a plumber and I live in Phoenix, but work on a sink in Gilbert, I have to have a tax license for both Phoenix (my office) and Gilbert (where the work is performed), as well as Maricopa County AND the State of Arizona..

I don't think the flower shop falls in the same category, since they are not performing a service in that municipality, they are delivering a product purchased from a static location.

I have no clue about Canadian laws, but it sounds like a similar situation.

[Wired]

Yea pretty much exactly the same. It's BS though.

[monochrome]

They decided your business activity is where you and the customer actually are, not where the images are processed, because that suits their revenue-raising scheme.. Each municipal authority wants a cut of teh action. They can do it because you and your customers want the park scenes, they control the park and there aren't any others. At the end of the day they know you will pass the costs on, the customers will pay them because they want to photos and the system will protect its monopoly (and enrich itself) by policing and fining the gypsies.

We have similar circumstances here in the USA as applied to user fees for park shoots. They claim it is to control access and to police and clean the park - but really it is monopolistic behavior because they can.

[owl]

The national florists contract with locals who are licensed in their areas. That is if your locality/state requires licenses, not all do. My locality doesn't license anything and you are generally free to hang out a shingle so long as you don't call yourself a doctor/engineer/etc. without a license which for the public's safety requires verification of competence. Licensing laws are generally intended to prevent competition from establishing itself in your home "turf", basically the same as the old guilds. I'm shocked as to what requires a license in some jurisdictions, they are generally the places that are economically depressed. I'm sorry I can't help, you do live in a republic and if enough people complain, laws can be changed.

[Wired]

The problem is that there are many shooters who decide that it's worth the risk to keep their prices low to the clients and shoot without a licence, even in the big cities. So they are undercutting those of us operating legitimately., It's even worse because they doing these shoots for something like $50 and when they do get in trouble they really put a sour face on the photography community and it affects all our legit businesses.

What we want to do as a community of legally operating business is to either make the process easier and cheaper, or make it more wide spread. ie: Edmonton and surrounding area would include all municipalities within a 50km range for example.

The parks ones are the worst...but if you got the business you will just buy a year pass and be done with it. It's an extra $1000 for both parks, and if the wedding season for you is busy enough and you charge properly it's a drop in the bucket. It's just when they go "I want to shoot in __________" and you will never be there again and they want a year licence for $500 thats annoying and time consuming as it just doesn't happen instantly.

[owl]

What we want to do as a community of legally operating business is to either make the process easier and cheaper, or make it more wide spread. ie: Edmonton and surrounding area would include all municipalities within a 50km range for example.

I misunderstood, I thought that photographers were licensed specifically rather than a general business license. In my locality, you only need a license if you are not using your real name, but there are many, many examples of licensing of specific professions by localities that are designed to keep competitors away or give the local constabulary a reason to give you the bum's rush. Of course, if what you are doing requires paying sales tax, you would have to be registered to collect sales taxes but that is at the state level.

[Wired]

I misunderstood, I thought that photographers were licensed specifically rather than a general business license. In my locality, you only need a license if you are not using your real name, but there are many, many examples of licensing of specific professions by localities that are designed to keep competitors away or give the local constabulary a reason to give you the bum's rush. Of course, if what you are doing requires paying sales tax, you would have to be registered to collect sales taxes but that is at the state level.

I think we should be registered as at a Provincial/state level and not have to be registered by municipality. Something new we found out is that some of the other provinces actually have a blanket licence instead of having the individual municipalities request licence from contracted business services. However, national parks are federal and still require you to get a park licence for that park, and the municipality within the park can still request a licence due to the fact that they rent the land for the town/city whatever from the national park.

oh politics....

[Winder]

Why should you be registered at all? If you ex-brother in-law in the next town over wants to pay you to take pictures of his dog why do you need to be licensed to do that?

[calculator01]

Oh wow. This is very interesting. I honestly never thought of licensing before. Good to know, but it really sounds like our Province and Municipalities need to rethink a lot of things.

We are actually about to have our wedding (Jasper) with a photog out of Edmonton. This should make for an interesting conversation...

[Wired]

Why should you be registered at all? If you ex-brother in-law in the next town over wants to pay you to take pictures of his dog why do you need to be licensed to do that?

Like any business there is a difference between moon lighting and operating legitly. Sure there are many people who take money for odd jobs here and there. Not only is being registered a sign of credibility to your clients (you would want a registered roofer to work on your home would you not? One who is insured as well?) but it's also a safety net for yourself. You cannot get insurance to cover your camera gear when your shooting without one. Could you technically be fined for it? Sure you can!

Well, I can cover my gear under home insurance.

Sure you can. But insurance companies are smarter than you think. Its one thing to say "my camera went missing at the park during a family get together" versus "my camera went missing at my friends wedding". They will want to talk to your "friend" and they will dig until they find out if you really there to shoot it or not. Once they find out you were potentially making money (and all they need is the potential) then they will deny your claim. And chances are in our era of social media there is online proof that you were hired for this wedding. I also doubt the bride and groom would want to go along with insurance fraud...

It's not just "my camera" went missing events either. What if your shooting a wedding and your camera fails, or your memory card fails. This is their one big day, the one and only day that they get to celebrate the rest of their lives together. It's a corner stone of their life, and you, the professional, failed, its all your fault that they won't be able to look back on it, its all your fault that they won't have beautiful images to show their friends or families. So they will sue the living pants off of you. Luckily as a register and insured pro you have a $1,000,000+ liability insurance in place to cover your butt when and if this does happen.

Or hey, your shooting a sporting event and you have this huge 120-300 f2.8 Sigma lens hanging off your camera which is hanging off your strap at your hip while your shooting with your second camera getting some wide angles. Someone calls your name or something calls for your attention so you quickly turn around and that bazooka of a lens swings around and hits little Suzy in the head, now shes bleeding, crying, and her momma is pissed right off at you. She wants your name, drivers licence number, phone number, and you better wait right there while she goes and finds security. Thats when she notices you have a press pass, so she knows your there making a dollar, so she's going to go after the person who hired you. Well I guess it's a good thing you got insurance to cover you butt!

I couldn't even get a job at the Folk Festival here last year because my credentials didn't come in on time! What to rent studio space? Nope, not without having insurance and a business licence.

It's imperative to have one if your going to make money at this. If you don't have it, your not only screwing yourself your screwing the rest of the working photographers who do have one as it tarnishes the reputation of the whole community when the client goes and blabs all over town that you got kicked out of city hall for taking photos without a licence. (I actually did when I was taking maternity photos of my wife! Once we convinced the bylaw officer that we were married and living at the same household they let us continue.)



think this only applies to portrait shooters? Think again!

A member of our professional community who took a landscape image in the town of Banff, AB was contacted by the provincial government asking if the image was taken in Banff when they saw the print for sale on his website. He did say that he took it in Banff. The province then requested documentation including his business licence for Banff for that day as well as his park pass receipt for that day. Naturally this is a tax write off as a cost of doing business so he still had the receipts and was able to sell his art without penalty.

government... I tells yea...they want all our monies!

[Winder]

Like any business there is a difference between moon lighting and operating legitly. Sure there are many people who take money for odd jobs here and there. Not only is being registered a sign of credibility to your clients (you would want a registered roofer to work on your home would you not? One who is insured as well?) but it's also a safety net for yourself. You cannot get insurance to cover your camera gear when your shooting without one. Could you technically be fined for it? Sure you can!

I don't care if someone is registered or not. If two people want to enter into a business agreement that up to them and I really don't care if one of them has a license or not. Just because someone goes downtown and fills out some paperwork for a license, doesn't mean they are competent. Some of the most talented photographers I know are not professional photographers, and don't have a license.

You seem to be implying that if someone doesn't have a license they are not a talented or competent as people who do. I guess the vast majority of the people on this forum aren't very talented or competent if that is true.

Well, I can cover my gear under home insurance.

Sure you can. But insurance companies are smarter than you think. Its one thing to say "my camera went missing at the park during a family get together" versus "my camera went missing at my friends wedding". They will want to talk to your "friend" and they will dig until they find out if you really there to shoot it or not. Once they find out you were potentially making money (and all they need is the potential) then they will deny your claim. And chances are in our era of social media there is online proof that you were hired for this wedding. I also doubt the bride and groom would want to go along with insurance fraud...

It's not just "my camera" went missing events either. What if your shooting a wedding and your camera fails, or your memory card fails. This is their one big day, the one and only day that they get to celebrate the rest of their lives together. It's a corner stone of their life, and you, the professional, failed, its all your fault that they won't be able to look back on it, its all your fault that they won't have beautiful images to show their friends or families. So they will sue the living pants off of you. Luckily as a register and insured pro you have a $1,000,000+ liability insurance in place to cover your butt when and if this does happen.

Or hey, your shooting a sporting event and you have this huge 120-300 f2.8 Sigma lens hanging off your camera which is hanging off your strap at your hip while your shooting with your second camera getting some wide angles. Someone calls your name or something calls for your attention so you quickly turn around and that bazooka of a lens swings around and hits little Suzy in the head, now shes bleeding, crying, and her momma is pissed right off at you. She wants your name, drivers licence number, phone number, and you better wait right there while she goes and finds security. Thats when she notices you have a press pass, so she knows your there making a dollar, so she's going to go after the person who hired you. Well I guess it's a good thing you got insurance to cover you butt!

I don't know about Canada, but I can get insurance for anything that I own regardless of my chosen career. I can get a personal liability policy for any damage that I cause regardless of my occupation.

I couldn't even get a job at the Folk Festival here last year because my credentials didn't come in on time! What to rent studio space? Nope, not without having insurance and a business licence.

It's imperative to have one if your going to make money at this. If you don't have it, your not only screwing yourself your screwing the rest of the working photographers who do have one as it tarnishes the reputation of the whole community when the client goes and blabs all over town that you got kicked out of city hall for taking photos without a licence. (I actually did when I was taking maternity photos of my wife! Once we convinced the bylaw officer that we were married and living at the same household they let us continue.)

You must have strange laws in Canada. I have had people who are not professional photographers rent studio space. The people who rent the space don't care what I plan on doing there as long as my check clears. I can rent a studio and store boxes there as long as I have the money. It is simply space that is for rent. I know a guy who rented a large climate controlled storage unit and used is as a studio because it was so cheap.

The fact you had to prove to a bylaw that you were taking pictures of you wife is simple sad. It's none of his business why you are taking pictures or your relationship.

I have a business license simply because its simple and cheap where I live, but I don't feel threatened by any photographer who is operating without a license. I'm not being screwed by them. The people who hire the bargain basement and part time shooters typically can't or won't pay what I would charge in the first place, so they don't represent lost business to me.

Licensing simply provides a false sense of security. Bernie Madoff had lots of licenses. Did they make him more honest or did they give his clients a false sense of trust and security?

A State of North Carolina Photographer Privilege is an annual $50 fee. No lawyers, just fill out the form and send the check. It's issued by the N.C. Dept.of Revenue. I also file NC Sales Tax Returns to these folks.

I also pay an annual $200 NC State LLC registration fee to the NC Secy of State, but it is not required for a sole proprietor. An annual Municipal Photographer Privilege License was $0 (Exempt Profession) in my previous Town, $50 where I live now. Besides my Business Liability Policy, that's it.

Loughborough Inlet, British Columbia. Oh Canada, eh?

[MarkJerling]

What an utterly bizarre world we live in!?!? I own a business and I pay my taxes, which consists of income tax (personal and company) and GST. While I need to be licensed to operate, that permits me to work anywhere in the country. We don't have anything like local municipal licences here!

I'd say it's about time you have a good chat to your elected officials and find out what this licence actually achieves.

[Wired]

I don't care if someone is registered or not. If two people want to enter into a business agreement that up to them and I really don't care if one of them has a license or not. Just because someone goes downtown and fills out some paperwork for a license, doesn't mean they are competent. Some of the most talented photographers I know are not professional photographers, and don't have a license.



You seem to be implying that if someone doesn't have a license they are not a talented or competent as people who do. I guess the vast majority of the people on this forum aren't very talented or competent if that is true.







I don't know about Canada, but I can get insurance for anything that I own regardless of my chosen career. I can get a personal liability policy for any damage that I cause regardless of my occupation.







You must have strange laws in Canada. I have had people who are not professional photographers rent studio space. The people who rent the space don't care what I plan on doing there as long as my check clears. I can rent a studio and store boxes there as long as I have the money. It is simply space that is for rent. I know a guy who rented a large climate controlled storage unit and used is as a studio because it was so cheap.



The fact you had to prove to a bylaw that you were taking pictures of you wife is simple sad. It's none of his business why you are taking pictures or your relationship.



I have a business license simply because its simple and cheap where I live, but I don't feel threatened by any photographer who is operating without a license. I'm not being screwed by them. The people who hire the bargain basement and part time shooters typically can't or won't pay what I would charge in the first place, so they don't represent lost business to me.



Licensing simply provides a false sense of security. Bernie Madoff had lots of licenses. Did they make him more honest or did they give his clients a false sense of trust and security?

I never implied nor would I ever imply that someone operating without a licence is not skilled. Not once did skill level come into the conversation.

There are simply amazing photographers who have no licence. There are also amazing photographers who have no interest in making money from this art form. On the flip side there are lots of photographers from bad to mediocre to amazing to stunning that do hold a licence and shoot professionally.

There are also auto mechanics who have a full journeymen's course under their belt and 10 years experience....but can't figure out that a spark plug is causing an engine to miss fire.


Insurance here in canada falls to personal and business. Even as an employee of a retail merchant you are not permitted to use your personal vehicle to make a bank run for example. If you got into an accident while using your vehicle for business you can not only be fined, but the insurance company does not need to cover the claim.

same goes for musicians. If a local band is playing a show and a guitar goes missing, if they did not have insurance they would not be able to claim loss. The guitarist from Moist wrote a boom (the indie band bible) and dedicated a whole chapter to the importance of a business licence and insurance for the band.

It may not matter to you if one has a licence or not. But it may matter to others.

Sure you can rent space to shoot, maybe even a studio. But five of the studios i rent locally only allow you to rent if you have insurance and a licence. This is to protect them in case your burn their studio down.

Sure the bargain hunters won't pay your rate (they don't pay mine either) and 9/10 they are not worth it ether as they seem to have a strange false sense of entitlement. But the fact is that the bargain shooters are hurting them and us. I've seen it a thousand times. Joe hires mr T5i to shoot his wedding. Mr T5i shows his inexperience ether with lack of professionalism, bad images, or all of the above. Joe goes on Facebook and bad mouths the living crap out of this shooter. Now all his friends get cautious of not just kijiji shooters but all shooters. They question your rates they complain about everything... Blah blah blah

And it's not just the bargain shooters operating without licence. Many actually do. I myself only shoot limited part time and still have a licence. There are shooters who have no day job operating without licences. They may have one for their home city, but never bother getting them elsewhere. Which can be a problem in national parks where this issue is the biggest.

This industry is just as much about customer service as it is photography. You are selling a product that is you! And that's hard for a lot of photographers to understand. Many are just artists, who can be oblivious to the risks and the "rules" of the business end. They end up getting burnt, discouraged, or out right fail. I would rather see them enjoy photography and not worry about the pain. But it comes with the job sometimes