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JimmyDranox · 11-25-2014, 02:25 PM

I'm reading every day a number of threads. General threads, or about specific cameras or lenses. And of course, threads about the future developments expected in the Pentax world.

And I have a problem, which became bigger and bigger. A lot of threads are polluted by a small, but very active group of ''members'' who tries to convince us how good are Sony cameras, better than any existing and future Pentax camera. I don't see such a propaganda for Canon or Nikon, or another brand.

Frankly, I can find out myself everything about other brands cameras, if I want. But I read this forum because I'm interested by Pentax, not by Sony. And I'm tired. And annoyed.

. I have ended my subscription to a number of thread because I'm sick of this ''Sony is better''.

So I have a question. Why we, users of Pentax cameras, must endure this bombarded by this Sony propaganda here, on this forum?

I knew that is a rule on the marketplace, which prohibits comparisons between offers, in anyway. Can be made a rule to forbid this Sony propaganda?

Parallax · 11-25-2014, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDranox

So I have a question. Why we, users of Pentax cameras, must endure this bombarded by this Sony propaganda here, on this forum?

I'll try and address this.
First, we moderators are annoyed by the same thing, however, you should have noticed substantially less Sony-specific spam as the member who was the "Sony is better than Pentax" standard bearer is no longer a part of the forum. We encourage full range discussions, but there is a fine line between expressing a dissenting opinion and trolling. We try and keep it under control as best we can, but I can't say we don't have a few active trolls.

Originally posted by JimmyDranox

I knew that is a rule on the marketplace, which prohibits comparisons between offers, in anyway. Can be made a rule to forbid this Sony propaganda?

Within the last week we have enforced the "While we are quite happy to have constructive comparative conversations about competing camera brands, please do not lead 'brand wars' or bash a particular camera manufacturer" rule. The problem is there is no way to quantify what is propaganda and what is simply expressing an opinion. We have to make judgement calls and we prefer to err on the side of caution and not be too heavy handed.

To quote an American President: "I feel your pain."

FWIW, I believe there are two ways to deal with trolls. Don't feed them, or feed them large helpings (within forum rule guidelines) of something they don't like.

flaviopetrone · 11-25-2014, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDranox

A lot of threads are polluted by a small, but very active group of ''members'' who tries to convince us how good are Sony cameras, better than any existing and future Pentax camera. I don't see such a propaganda for Canon or Nikon, or another brand.

Maybe who supports Sony sees in the Pentax users a better "target" to acquire new buyers. Yes, it is annoying, but as Parallax said:

Originally posted by Parallax

I believe there are two ways to deal with trolls. Don't feed them, or feed them large helpings (within forum rule guidelines) of something they don't like.

In the end they will get tired before of us, trust me.

JimmyDranox · 11-25-2014, 03:15 PM

I know that a rule can be considered as a limitation against freedom of speech, and more than this, a rule is not always read by members. That's why I think that a message (especially a public one) from a moderator to those involved in this propaganda can be more effective.

How can be quantified? Maybe persistence, and posts far from the topic is a way to qualify this propaganda.

Parallax · 11-25-2014, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDranox

That's way I think that a message (especially a public one) from a moderator to those involved in this propaganda can be more effective

I've been known to speak my mind.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/76-non-pentax-cameras-canon-nikon-etc/279...ml#post3033083

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/273250-photokina-20...ml#post3042386

micromacro · 11-25-2014, 06:55 PM

I'm not sure that Sony popularity is only on this forums. When I asked on Canon forum which FF would fit my needs, I got replies that it would be most likely Sony. I have to admit, after playing with Canon FF and Sony FF, I was impressed by Sony, but will wait for Pentax FF.

(yes, I know...)

Biro · 11-26-2014, 10:24 AM

Building on what micromacro wrote, I think we'll see a certain amount of Sony talk on most camera forums for a while because that company seems to be doing most of the innovation right now. And certainly Sony's A7 line is interesting to most photographers, even if they won't buy one in the end. I certainly enjoy talking about the A7's and would even consider a basic A7 if the price of a body fell under $1000 new. But that's a lot different from trolling for Sony. If we don't even respond to troller's bait, they'll get bored and leave.

aleonx3 · 11-26-2014, 10:43 AM

It is not hard to see that most people on this forum (who are converted and bought Sony FF while still owning Pentax APS-C) are trying to justify their decisions of owning and enjoying a FF (albeit a Sony brand); it is a fact that Pentax does not have FF in the current offer.

However, I would think that once Pentax FF is available, they may slow down or gradually go away. I am optimistic that we will soon have a Pentax brand FF, and I don't want to waste money on a FF system which supports in manual focus mode only with Pentax lenses. IMHO, the better the Sony FF gets, the sooner we will see FF in Pentax camp.

**Lowell Goudge** · 11-26-2014, 11:03 AM

I think there is a certain amount of envy, or using Sony as a comparison to ricoh

Consider that Sony purchased Minolta and retained their lens mount to keep the minolta croud. Compare that to pentax, another fringe camera maker (compared to canikons) and people want, especially now that rocoh owns pentax, to see the same types of innovations etc.

Pentax, good or bad, elected to follow a direction a long time ago not to chase full frame, maybe it will change, but I don't think isn't is necessary.

Sony is going nowhere with their cameras, considering what they put into them, and would you rather have be tax take a huge risk and get burned(again - remember they went digital with HP and failed before anyone else) or would you rather have them remain stable.

**filoxophy** · 11-26-2014, 06:42 PM

Problem members aside, I would think it's mainly a function of the A7II coming out. Remember when the D800 was released? All of a sudden the 645D was irrelevent, blah blah. Like Biro said, Sony is making some interesting moves which inspire discussion. Also, the A7II is the first FF cam that could accept our legacy Pentax glass with IBIS--something that I think appeals to a lot of PF members. Just my 2 cents.

**Mikesul** · 11-26-2014, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by filoxophy

Problem members aside, I would think it's mainly a function of the A7II coming out. Remember when the D800 was released? All of a sudden the 645D was irrelevent, blah blah. Like Biro said, Sony is making some interesting moves which inspire discussion. Also, the A7II is the first FF cam that could accept our legacy Pentax glass with IBIS--something that I think appeals to a lot of PF members. Just my 2 cents.

I am sure this kind of post is well within the rules. We want Pentax to do this but in the meantime it is fun, interesting and VERY frustrating to discuss what Sony has done and whether we can expect something similar from Pentax. K Mount deserves such a camera.

JimmyDranox · 11-26-2014, 11:33 PM - **1 Like**

Pentax, please, make that FF. And please, make it BIG, with a permanent vertical grip, good for a strong man, so, all those people with little hands to cry : ''Oh, it is so big and heavy'', and make them go to Sony for good, to make pictures only in manual focus with their beloved A7xxx.

**gaweidert** · 11-28-2014, 07:25 AM

Well, I am not worried to let others come up with an idea first. Then Pentax can refine it and make it right. So Sony, innovate away. Kodak "missed" the invention of photography by 50 years. But once they got going, they did have a pretty good 120 year run with it simply by tweaking an existing product.

DeadJohn · 11-28-2014, 08:32 AM

Some of the postings about non-Ricoh/Pentax brands are propaganda others are useful information about alternatives. PF works for me as a photography forum catering to people who use the K-mount, and not a site promoting a specific brand. PF does a good job of balancing things.

Hey, mods, keep up the good work!

**filoxophy** · 11-28-2014, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by DeadJohn

Some of the postings about non-Ricoh/Pentax brands are propaganda others are useful information about alternatives. PF works for me as a photography forum catering to people who use the K-mount, and not a site promoting a specific brand. PF does a good job of balancing things.

Hey, mods, keep up the good work!

+1 to that

11-25-2014, 02:25 PM	#1
JimmyDranox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ploiesti, Romania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,632	I'm tired I'm reading every day a number of threads. General threads, or about specific cameras or lenses. And of course, threads about the future developments expected in the Pentax world. And I have a problem, which became bigger and bigger. A lot of threads are polluted by a small, but very active group of ''members'' who tries to convince us how good are Sony cameras, better than any existing and future Pentax camera. I don't see such a propaganda for Canon or Nikon, or another brand. Frankly, I can find out myself everything about other brands cameras, if I want. But I read this forum because I'm interested by Pentax, not by Sony. And I'm tired. And annoyed.. I have ended my subscription to a number of thread because I'm sick of this ''Sony is better''. So I have a question. Why we, users of Pentax cameras, must endure this bombarded by this Sony propaganda here, on this forum? I knew that is a rule on the marketplace, which prohibits comparisons between offers, in anyway. Can be made a rule to forbid this Sony propaganda?

11-25-2014, 06:55 PM	#6
micromacro Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,722	I'm not sure that Sony popularity is only on this forums. When I asked on Canon forum which FF would fit my needs, I got replies that it would be most likely Sony. I have to admit, after playing with Canon FF and Sony FF, I was impressed by Sony, but will wait for Pentax FF. (yes, I know...) Last edited by micromacro; 11-26-2014 at 11:10 AM. Reason: typo

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11-25-2014, 02:42 PM	#2
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Originally posted by JimmyDranox So I have a question. Why we, users of Pentax cameras, must endure this bombarded by this Sony propaganda here, on this forum? I'll try and address this. First, we moderators are annoyed by the same thing, however, you should have noticed substantially less Sony-specific spam as the member who was the "Sony is better than Pentax" standard bearer is no longer a part of the forum. We encourage full range discussions, but there is a fine line between expressing a dissenting opinion and trolling. We try and keep it under control as best we can, but I can't say we don't have a few active trolls. Originally posted by JimmyDranox I knew that is a rule on the marketplace, which prohibits comparisons between offers, in anyway. Can be made a rule to forbid this Sony propaganda? Within the last week we have enforced the "While we are quite happy to have constructive comparative conversations about competing camera brands, please do not lead 'brand wars' or bash a particular camera manufacturer" rule. The problem is there is no way to quantify what is propaganda and what is simply expressing an opinion. We have to make judgement calls and we prefer to err on the side of caution and not be too heavy handed. To quote an American President: "I feel your pain." FWIW, I believe there are two ways to deal with trolls. Don't feed them, or feed them large helpings (within forum rule guidelines) of something they don't like.

11-25-2014, 03:07 PM	#3
flaviopetrone Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Reggio Emilia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,153	Originally posted by JimmyDranox A lot of threads are polluted by a small, but very active group of ''members'' who tries to convince us how good are Sony cameras, better than any existing and future Pentax camera. I don't see such a propaganda for Canon or Nikon, or another brand. Maybe who supports Sony sees in the Pentax users a better "target" to acquire new buyers. Yes, it is annoying, but as Parallax said: Originally posted by Parallax I believe there are two ways to deal with trolls. Don't feed them, or feed them large helpings (within forum rule guidelines) of something they don't like. In the end they will get tired before of us, trust me.

11-25-2014, 03:15 PM	#4
JimmyDranox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ploiesti, Romania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,632 Original Poster	I know that a rule can be considered as a limitation against freedom of speech, and more than this, a rule is not always read by members. That's why I think that a message (especially a public one) from a moderator to those involved in this propaganda can be more effective. How can be quantified? Maybe persistence, and posts far from the topic is a way to qualify this propaganda.

11-25-2014, 03:17 PM	#5
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Originally posted by JimmyDranox That's way I think that a message (especially a public one) from a moderator to those involved in this propaganda can be more effective I've been known to speak my mind. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/76-non-pentax-cameras-canon-nikon-etc/279...ml#post3033083 https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/273250-photokina-20...ml#post3042386

11-26-2014, 10:24 AM	#7
Biro Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,200	Building on what micromacro wrote, I think we'll see a certain amount of Sony talk on most camera forums for a while because that company seems to be doing most of the innovation right now. And certainly Sony's A7 line is interesting to most photographers, even if they won't buy one in the end. I certainly enjoy talking about the A7's and would even consider a basic A7 if the price of a body fell under $1000 new. But that's a lot different from trolling for Sony. If we don't even respond to troller's bait, they'll get bored and leave.

11-26-2014, 10:43 AM	#8
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	It is not hard to see that most people on this forum (who are converted and bought Sony FF while still owning Pentax APS-C) are trying to justify their decisions of owning and enjoying a FF (albeit a Sony brand); it is a fact that Pentax does not have FF in the current offer. However, I would think that once Pentax FF is available, they may slow down or gradually go away. I am optimistic that we will soon have a Pentax brand FF, and I don't want to waste money on a FF system which supports in manual focus mode only with Pentax lenses. IMHO, the better the Sony FF gets, the sooner we will see FF in Pentax camp.

11-26-2014, 11:03 AM	#9
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,892	I think there is a certain amount of envy, or using Sony as a comparison to ricoh Consider that Sony purchased Minolta and retained their lens mount to keep the minolta croud. Compare that to pentax, another fringe camera maker (compared to canikons) and people want, especially now that rocoh owns pentax, to see the same types of innovations etc. Pentax, good or bad, elected to follow a direction a long time ago not to chase full frame, maybe it will change, but I don't think isn't is necessary. Sony is going nowhere with their cameras, considering what they put into them, and would you rather have be tax take a huge risk and get burned(again - remember they went digital with HP and failed before anyone else) or would you rather have them remain stable.

11-26-2014, 06:42 PM	#10
filoxophy Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 1,133	Problem members aside, I would think it's mainly a function of the A7II coming out. Remember when the D800 was released? All of a sudden the 645D was irrelevent, blah blah. Like Biro said, Sony is making some interesting moves which inspire discussion. Also, the A7II is the first FF cam that could accept our legacy Pentax glass with IBIS--something that I think appeals to a lot of PF members. Just my 2 cents.

11-26-2014, 06:46 PM	#11
Mikesul Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 7,594	Originally posted by filoxophy Problem members aside, I would think it's mainly a function of the A7II coming out. Remember when the D800 was released? All of a sudden the 645D was irrelevent, blah blah. Like Biro said, Sony is making some interesting moves which inspire discussion. Also, the A7II is the first FF cam that could accept our legacy Pentax glass with IBIS--something that I think appeals to a lot of PF members. Just my 2 cents. I am sure this kind of post is well within the rules. We want Pentax to do this but in the meantime it is fun, interesting and VERY frustrating to discuss what Sony has done and whether we can expect something similar from Pentax. K Mount deserves such a camera.

11-26-2014, 11:33 PM - 1 Like	#12
JimmyDranox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ploiesti, Romania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,632 Original Poster	Pentax, please, make that FF. And please, make it BIG, with a permanent vertical grip, good for a strong man, so, all those people with little hands to cry : ''Oh, it is so big and heavy'', and make them go to Sony for good, to make pictures only in manual focus with their beloved A7xxx.

11-28-2014, 07:25 AM	#13
gaweidert Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,327	Well, I am not worried to let others come up with an idea first. Then Pentax can refine it and make it right. So Sony, innovate away. Kodak "missed" the invention of photography by 50 years. But once they got going, they did have a pretty good 120 year run with it simply by tweaking an existing product.

11-28-2014, 08:32 AM	#14
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,834	Some of the postings about non-Ricoh/Pentax brands are propaganda others are useful information about alternatives. PF works for me as a photography forum catering to people who use the K-mount, and not a site promoting a specific brand. PF does a good job of balancing things. Hey, mods, keep up the good work!

11-28-2014, 09:55 AM	#15
filoxophy Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 1,133	Originally posted by DeadJohn Some of the postings about non-Ricoh/Pentax brands are propaganda others are useful information about alternatives. PF works for me as a photography forum catering to people who use the K-mount, and not a site promoting a specific brand. PF does a good job of balancing things. Hey, mods, keep up the good work! +1 to that