(un-)importance of crop mode for FF ?!?

**Arne Bo** · 03-05-2015, 08:25 AM

Hi all,

i was asking myself a question while reading through this forum and other other places in the net.
Should the crop mode be a deciding factor for sensor resolution in the new FF body.
Lots of people write that they want lots and lots of resolution only to get a hi resolution crop mode to get K-3 like files. Otherwise they will "never" buy a FF Pentax.
I think Pentax Ricoh should care first and foremost for the quality of the FF pictures and capabilities. I hope they don´t choose to use a 50+ mp sensor with (relativly) poor low light capabilities and monstrous file sizes just to please the users shouting out loud for a K-3 like crop mode. I think even a crop of a 24mp FF sensor would be enough. 36mp seems to be the best compromise.
What is your opinion? There is a debate over mp numbers without the talk about crop modeanyway, but i have never seen so much posts about the importance of crop mode like now concerning the new Pentax FF.

Thanks for your input.

Na Horuk · 03-05-2015, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Arne Bo

I think Pentax Ricoh should care first and foremost for the quality of the FF pictures and capabilities.

I agree. If you want a high resolution crop mode, stick to the K-5IIs, K-3, K-S1, KS-2.. so many options, from affordable, WR, to top tier.
I know a guy who decided not to buy K-3 simply because its file size was bigger than the K-5IIs. To him, the file size increase wasn't worth the slightly higher resolution. And I get that.
20-24MP for FF is a good place, good for noise at high ISO, good for printing and cropping. Going above 28MP.. well, I'm not updating anytime soon
I mean, what is the point in buying a 50MP FF that has the same or worse noise performance than the K-5IIs? Only people shooting wide angle might need that, and even then the crop sensor system has quite a few wide angle, ultra wide angle, and even some fisheye lenses available.

jcdoss · 03-05-2015, 08:44 AM

I'm curious to know if any camera on the market now is producing RAW files of lower resolution from large imaging sensors. What would a 24MP FF RAW file from a 50MP sensor look like, for example? I don't know, nor am I advocating such a thing since I don't know... just curious.

rawr · 03-05-2015, 08:46 AM

I suspect that lots of people on this forum who already have FF cameras of other brands (Canon, Nikon, Sony) only rarely use crop mode. The situation with a Pentax FF will I suspect be similar.

I personally don't see it as terribly important. A useful feature of the camera sometimes: yes. Crucial: no.

**TER-OR** · 03-05-2015, 08:47 AM

Crop mode holds some attraction for those of us with a fair number of DA lenses. It's a crossover technology, since many have a mixed bag of lenses it makes the decision easier. Were I only able to use half my lenses, or manually crop all the poor coverage images with DA lenses on a FF body it would be kind of annoying. I like the option, and it's simply a software solution anyway so why not include it?

**UncleVanya** · 03-05-2015, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by TER-OR

Crop mode holds some attraction for those of us with a fair number of DA lenses. It's a crossover technology, since many have a mixed bag of lenses it makes the decision easier. Were I only able to use half my lenses, or manually crop all the poor coverage images with DA lenses on a FF body it would be kind of annoying. I like the option, and it's simply a software solution anyway so why not include it?

Originally posted by Arne Bo

i was asking myself a question while reading through this forum and other other places in the net. Should the crop mode be a deciding factor for sensor resolution in the new FF body.

The question in the first post isn't - "should the Pentax FF have a crop mode or not" (at least as I read it); the question seems to be, " Is a high resolution crop mode required for the FF to be a success?"

My initial answer on another thread on this topic was that I wanted 24MP crops. However after rethinking it and hearing the various points of view I came to the conclusion that 16MP crops would be sufficient. I'm not sure anything less than that would be however.

rawr · 03-05-2015, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by TER-OR

I like the option, and it's simply a software solution anyway so why not include it?

Exactly. It's just going to be a menu option on the camera.

And to return to the OP's question, I am confident that Ricoh will not be designing the FF camera on the basis of producing good crop mode images - eg choosing 50MP over 36MP on the basis that 50MP will produce a better crop mode image. Their primary aim will be to produce a great FF camera. A distant secondary goal will be to ensure that the camera can produce good crop resolution images too.

**dadipentak** · 03-05-2015, 09:12 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Arne Bo

I think Pentax Ricoh should care first and foremost for the quality of the FF pictures and capabilities. I hope they don´t choose to use a 50+ mp sensor with (relativly) poor low light capabilities and monstrous file sizes just to please the users shouting out loud for a K-3 like crop mode.

Abso-freakin'-lutely! I'm not much interested in buying this FF body but, if they're going to do it, they should optimize it as FF without any compromises.

**maxfield_photo** · 03-05-2015, 09:19 AM

30~36 MP is the magic number to make crop mode viable on a 35mm full frame. Any less and the cropped files are too small, any larger and the full size files are too big and cumbersome to edit. Wildlife and sport shooters will appreciate the ability to switch in and out of crop mode as their working distance dictates. Others will like the fact that they don't have to pitch their DA lenses. Crop mode is very important to this camera.

**jrpower10** · 03-05-2015, 09:24 AM

I rally can't see why anyone would buy a FF camera to use in crop mode as the go-to option. Crop mode is a bonus for the occasional times you want to use a DA lens, but you buy a FF camera to use FF lenses, and the camera should be optimzed for that, not crop mode. If all you have is DA lenses, buy a K-3; if you want 50 mp resolution, buy a 645z; if you want to use FF glass as it was designed for, buy the new FF.

For the record, one of the drivers for me going for the FA limiteds instead of the DA limiteds awhile back, was the eternal optimist in me saying "be ready for FF".

Wired · 03-05-2015, 10:21 AM

The crop mode conversation is just silly.... are you buying a FF camera to use APSC lenses or FF lenses?

If you want to use APSC lenses, but an APSC camera.

I get it, it would be nice to have a decent crop mode for the transition period....but didn't everyone scream and kick and whine for years because of no FF, and now people are doing the same because they want hi-resolution crop out of the FF?

p.s. I will NOT buy it if it has a 50mp sensor, thats just stupid to have that many MP.

JinDesu · 03-05-2015, 10:25 AM

I didn't think the issue was whether it had crop mode or not. If it didn't have crop mode, you can crop in post.

To me, the issue was if crop mode would be forced onto all DA lenses, regardless of their image circle. From the latest Ricoh interview with Imaging Resources, it seems they are aware of DA lenses with FF image circles, and they are looking for the best solution for the users.

psychdoc · 03-05-2015, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Arne Bo

Lots of people write that they want lots and lots of resolution only to get a hi resolution crop mode to get K-3 like files.

The thread title should be changed to (un-) importance of HIGH-MP crop mode for FF

DeadJohn · 03-05-2015, 11:13 AM - **1 Like**

I'll continue to dream of a FF 50mp camera. That would allow a high resolution crop mode (so there's no need to carry a companion APS-C body to use with non-FF lenses we already have). Equally important, it could allow Ricoh to implement a 2x2 binning feature for 12.5mp FF low-light mode. Yes, binning can be done during post-processing with current cameras, but if it's built into the camera then liveview would work much better at night.

I don't expect to see the above features, but it could theoretically beat the Nikon D810 for resolution and the Sony A7s for low light, all in a single body.

**geomez** · 03-05-2015, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Wired

The crop mode conversation is just silly.... are you buying a FF camera to use APSC lenses or FF lenses?

If you want to use APSC lenses, but an APSC camera.

I get it, it would be nice to have a decent crop mode for the transition period....but didn't everyone scream and kick and whine for years because of no FF, and now people are doing the same because they want hi-resolution crop out of the FF?

p.s. I will NOT buy it if it has a 50mp sensor, thats just stupid to have that many MP.

Two reasons come to mind.
Those of us, myself included who plan on upgrading to FF that already have DA lenses. The crop mode offers a transition period, so I don't have to run out and immediately spend $5000+ to get my focal length range covered with legacy FF glass.
Second, I have a DA 15mm Ltd. I have an ultra wide angle Sigma zoom. Pentax has a lot of gaps in it's FF glass lineup. AFIK the only thing they have in wide angle is legacy 20mm and 24mm lenses that fetch some big bucks in the used market.
So if Pentax wants their new FF DSLR to be viable and successful, they either need a decent crop mode, or they have to release about twenty D-FA lenses asap.

03-05-2015, 08:25 AM	#1
Arne Bo Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Hamburg Photos: Albums Posts: 123	(un-)importance of crop mode for FF ?!? Hi all, i was asking myself a question while reading through this forum and other other places in the net. Should the crop mode be a deciding factor for sensor resolution in the new FF body. Lots of people write that they want lots and lots of resolution only to get a hi resolution crop mode to get K-3 like files. Otherwise they will "never" buy a FF Pentax. I think Pentax Ricoh should care first and foremost for the quality of the FF pictures and capabilities. I hope they don´t choose to use a 50+ mp sensor with (relativly) poor low light capabilities and monstrous file sizes just to please the users shouting out loud for a K-3 like crop mode. I think even a crop of a 24mp FF sensor would be enough. 36mp seems to be the best compromise. What is your opinion? There is a debate over mp numbers without the talk about crop modeanyway, but i have never seen so much posts about the importance of crop mode like now concerning the new Pentax FF. Thanks for your input.

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03-05-2015, 08:38 AM	#2
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	Originally posted by Arne Bo I think Pentax Ricoh should care first and foremost for the quality of the FF pictures and capabilities. I agree. If you want a high resolution crop mode, stick to the K-5IIs, K-3, K-S1, KS-2.. so many options, from affordable, WR, to top tier. I know a guy who decided not to buy K-3 simply because its file size was bigger than the K-5IIs. To him, the file size increase wasn't worth the slightly higher resolution. And I get that. 20-24MP for FF is a good place, good for noise at high ISO, good for printing and cropping. Going above 28MP.. well, I'm not updating anytime soon I mean, what is the point in buying a 50MP FF that has the same or worse noise performance than the K-5IIs? Only people shooting wide angle might need that, and even then the crop sensor system has quite a few wide angle, ultra wide angle, and even some fisheye lenses available.

03-05-2015, 08:44 AM	#3
jcdoss Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Ingelheim am Rhein, Germany Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,768	I'm curious to know if any camera on the market now is producing RAW files of lower resolution from large imaging sensors. What would a 24MP FF RAW file from a 50MP sensor look like, for example? I don't know, nor am I advocating such a thing since I don't know... just curious.

03-05-2015, 08:46 AM	#4
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	I suspect that lots of people on this forum who already have FF cameras of other brands (Canon, Nikon, Sony) only rarely use crop mode. The situation with a Pentax FF will I suspect be similar. I personally don't see it as terribly important. A useful feature of the camera sometimes: yes. Crucial: no.

03-05-2015, 08:47 AM	#5
TER-OR Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Dundee, IL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,699	Crop mode holds some attraction for those of us with a fair number of DA lenses. It's a crossover technology, since many have a mixed bag of lenses it makes the decision easier. Were I only able to use half my lenses, or manually crop all the poor coverage images with DA lenses on a FF body it would be kind of annoying. I like the option, and it's simply a software solution anyway so why not include it?

03-05-2015, 08:57 AM	#6
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,400	Originally posted by TER-OR Crop mode holds some attraction for those of us with a fair number of DA lenses. It's a crossover technology, since many have a mixed bag of lenses it makes the decision easier. Were I only able to use half my lenses, or manually crop all the poor coverage images with DA lenses on a FF body it would be kind of annoying. I like the option, and it's simply a software solution anyway so why not include it? Originally posted by Arne Bo i was asking myself a question while reading through this forum and other other places in the net. Should the crop mode be a deciding factor for sensor resolution in the new FF body. The question in the first post isn't - "should the Pentax FF have a crop mode or not" (at least as I read it); the question seems to be, " Is a high resolution crop mode required for the FF to be a success?" My initial answer on another thread on this topic was that I wanted 24MP crops. However after rethinking it and hearing the various points of view I came to the conclusion that 16MP crops would be sufficient. I'm not sure anything less than that would be however.

03-05-2015, 08:57 AM	#7
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by TER-OR I like the option, and it's simply a software solution anyway so why not include it? Exactly. It's just going to be a menu option on the camera. And to return to the OP's question, I am confident that Ricoh will not be designing the FF camera on the basis of producing good crop mode images - eg choosing 50MP over 36MP on the basis that 50MP will produce a better crop mode image. Their primary aim will be to produce a great FF camera. A distant secondary goal will be to ensure that the camera can produce good crop resolution images too.

03-05-2015, 09:12 AM - 1 Like	#8
dadipentak Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,590	Originally posted by Arne Bo I think Pentax Ricoh should care first and foremost for the quality of the FF pictures and capabilities. I hope they don´t choose to use a 50+ mp sensor with (relativly) poor low light capabilities and monstrous file sizes just to please the users shouting out loud for a K-3 like crop mode. Abso-freakin'-lutely! I'm not much interested in buying this FF body but, if they're going to do it, they should optimize it as FF without any compromises.

03-05-2015, 09:19 AM	#9
maxfield_photo Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,216	30~36 MP is the magic number to make crop mode viable on a 35mm full frame. Any less and the cropped files are too small, any larger and the full size files are too big and cumbersome to edit. Wildlife and sport shooters will appreciate the ability to switch in and out of crop mode as their working distance dictates. Others will like the fact that they don't have to pitch their DA lenses. Crop mode is very important to this camera.

03-05-2015, 09:24 AM	#10
jrpower10 Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Richland, Washington, USA Posts: 935	I rally can't see why anyone would buy a FF camera to use in crop mode as the go-to option. Crop mode is a bonus for the occasional times you want to use a DA lens, but you buy a FF camera to use FF lenses, and the camera should be optimzed for that, not crop mode. If all you have is DA lenses, buy a K-3; if you want 50 mp resolution, buy a 645z; if you want to use FF glass as it was designed for, buy the new FF. For the record, one of the drivers for me going for the FA limiteds instead of the DA limiteds awhile back, was the eternal optimist in me saying "be ready for FF".

03-05-2015, 10:21 AM	#11
Wired Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Edmonton, AB Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,519	The crop mode conversation is just silly.... are you buying a FF camera to use APSC lenses or FF lenses? If you want to use APSC lenses, but an APSC camera. I get it, it would be nice to have a decent crop mode for the transition period....but didn't everyone scream and kick and whine for years because of no FF, and now people are doing the same because they want hi-resolution crop out of the FF? p.s. I will NOT buy it if it has a 50mp sensor, thats just stupid to have that many MP.

03-05-2015, 10:25 AM	#12
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	I didn't think the issue was whether it had crop mode or not. If it didn't have crop mode, you can crop in post. To me, the issue was if crop mode would be forced onto all DA lenses, regardless of their image circle. From the latest Ricoh interview with Imaging Resources, it seems they are aware of DA lenses with FF image circles, and they are looking for the best solution for the users.

03-05-2015, 10:44 AM	#13
psychdoc Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Bham Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 949	Originally posted by Arne Bo Lots of people write that they want lots and lots of resolution only to get a hi resolution crop mode to get K-3 like files. The thread title should be changed to (un-) importance of HIGH-MP crop mode for FF

03-05-2015, 11:13 AM - 1 Like	#14
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,833	I'll continue to dream of a FF 50mp camera. That would allow a high resolution crop mode (so there's no need to carry a companion APS-C body to use with non-FF lenses we already have). Equally important, it could allow Ricoh to implement a 2x2 binning feature for 12.5mp FF low-light mode. Yes, binning can be done during post-processing with current cameras, but if it's built into the camera then liveview would work much better at night. I don't expect to see the above features, but it could theoretically beat the Nikon D810 for resolution and the Sony A7s for low light, all in a single body.

03-05-2015, 11:21 AM	#15
geomez Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Roanoke, Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,760	Originally posted by Wired The crop mode conversation is just silly.... are you buying a FF camera to use APSC lenses or FF lenses? If you want to use APSC lenses, but an APSC camera. I get it, it would be nice to have a decent crop mode for the transition period....but didn't everyone scream and kick and whine for years because of no FF, and now people are doing the same because they want hi-resolution crop out of the FF? p.s. I will NOT buy it if it has a 50mp sensor, thats just stupid to have that many MP. Two reasons come to mind. Those of us, myself included who plan on upgrading to FF that already have DA lenses. The crop mode offers a transition period, so I don't have to run out and immediately spend $5000+ to get my focal length range covered with legacy FF glass. Second, I have a DA 15mm Ltd. I have an ultra wide angle Sigma zoom. Pentax has a lot of gaps in it's FF glass lineup. AFIK the only thing they have in wide angle is legacy 20mm and 24mm lenses that fetch some big bucks in the used market. So if Pentax wants their new FF DSLR to be viable and successful, they either need a decent crop mode, or they have to release about twenty D-FA lenses asap.