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bjsmith · 08-05-2008, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Venturi

As to Linux playing catch-up, just look at hardware driver support

Again, "superstore" hardware tends to be problematic where vendors not only refuse to release specifications for drivers, but they are often licensed from 3rd parties.
Those 3rd parties are then not going to release specifications, because they want the OEMs to come back to them for drivers.

Result?

The exact same base hardware having different and incompatible drivers between OEMs under Windows.
Under Linux, 1 driver rules them all, and things are far more compatible.

Countless network MAC+PHY combinations in Windows have countless, fragmented drivers.
I even ran into a case where Toshiba had the wrong driver on their web site for Windows, although it worked flawless in in Linux.
In fact, I used Linux to get the actual firmware info so I could get the correct driver from Intel for Windows (bypassing Toshiba's incorrect download).

The entire USB stack in Windows is a mix of incompatible vendor implementations, whereas the Linux stack is a "clean" harmony of inter-working drivers.
I do not want to see this non-sense duplicated from Windows to Linux.

In fact, a lot of Windows USB drivers for countless hardware is version specific and time limited, whereas Linux drivers are perpetual.
What you want is every little nick'nack hardware you get at the superstore to come with Linux support "out-of-the-box" when the problem is the hardware vendor, not Linux.

In fact, HP finally "woke up" about 3 years ago and realized it is cheaper to leverage the subsystems built into Linux than it is to outsource its Windows drivers to 3rd parties.
Microsoft provides so little to base input, printing and scanning on, and that's why 3rd parties provide so much.

Again, "superstore profit model" -- in Windows, there's plenty of non-sense to "fill in" whereas in Linux, the subsystems for input, printing, scanning, etc... are already provided.
That's why you get lots and lots of superstore hardware that stomp on each other in Windows, etc... where you don't in Linux.

Once someone discovers the little vendor id/model strings required to "recognize" the superstore hardware in Linux, it often works "as-is" without much fuss.
The problem is tracking all of those stupid little OEM off-shoots of the same hardware, with their non-standard, 3rd party licensed software interfaces.

Again, 100% "superstore" problem, not Linux.
And some vendors, namely HP, are "coming around."

Originally Posted by Venturi

for keyboards, mice,

Huh? I've found keyboard/mouse support to be better in Linux, not just against Vista, but XP.

Originally Posted by Venturi

scanners

Scanners are largely software-only. But even in that case, SANE is superior to TWAIN. SANE is a complete scanner subsystem -- from GUI to network scanning. TWAIN is a bare-boned API that is not complete. SANE is available for all platforms. TWAIN is largely Windows-only and vendors products stomp on each other when you have more than a few devices.

Again, the root cause is Microsoft not providing real subsystems with support, and 3rd parties stomping on each other.

Furthermore, several vendors are now providing SANE support (which works on all OSes), saving a crapload of money on 3rd party licensing fees. No GUI and other components to license as they would have to for TWAIN. A few of the Chinese/Taiwanese conglomerates are now "getting on board." It all depends.

But other vendors don't want to. Why? SANE comes with network-based scanning and other things that they charge mega-bucks for! Why would they want to support something that will take away their other profits, especially when network scanning software is thousands plus dozens per node? Even HP, for Windows, does this, to get you to buy newer OfficeJets -- although if you look, the SANE drivers do work under Windows too.

.

Again, politics at work. Educate yourself and you can do a lot with Linux out-of-the-box. The hardware support is often there! Just because the vendor doesn't give you a fold-out card and an installer in Linux doesn't mean that a Linux system won't auto-detect and use the hardware automagically! Red Hat's kudzu is pretty good at finding new hardware at boot, including scanners, and GNOME SANE and other support is pretty good.

It's been awhile since I've had to "manually" configure anything in Linux when it comes to scanning. The only "troublesome" hardware are the printers and scanners that use the simplistic Windows GDI. If you're using the Windows GDI for your printer/scanner support, you deserve the issues you get in Windows on their own -- seriously.

Originally Posted by Venturi

and even fundamental components like GPUs.

Huh? nVidia pretty much makes most of its margins on high-end Linux workstations and server chipsets. I can't help it if Intel keeps screwing up their chipsets and GPUs with little hardware changes that break backward compatibility, but nVidia has been outstanding. ATI has also been very good.

Originally Posted by Venturi

nVidia has done a pretty good job of supplying tools for Linux for its cards but it still isn't a seamless integration with xorg.

That's an IP issue, one that involves lots of patents. nVidia originally "opened" its driver almost a decade ago, and got cease'n desist letters from Intel, Microsoft and SGI.

Even Windows ships without support for the latest GPUs, and you have to load drivers. Now I think you're complaining more about "pre-installed" v. "user install" issues that are not Linux. I.e., ever try to load Windows XP on a new system? Driver hell.

Originally Posted by Venturi

Matter of fact Xorg has a long way to go in supporting multi-function mice and keyboards without the user having dig into the configuration files and heavy use of prayer.

Apparently you haven't used the GUI tools.

Also, don't confuse "flexibility" with "usability." Just because Linux ships a lot of capabilities that are flexible doesn't mean you have to use them all.

E.g., Samba (a great example of this) lets you emulate just about any Windows Server version and finely tune any parameter, but you can set it up in a "stock" configuration -- like a Windows Server -- with a simple GUI. Again, don't "mark off points" on Linux for adding more options when Microsoft does not.

I have no problem using multiple keyboards, mice, etc... on the root X-Server (:0.0) without configuring jack. If I want to have multiple X-servers running, yeah, I have to dive into that. But since when does Microsoft offer the equivalent? Even Terminal Services has its limitations (and is hardly designed for "end-users").

Originally Posted by Venturi

As far as application ware, I'm going to stick to photo/image manipulation software as this is a photographic oriented forum.

Then send an e-mail to Adobe DEMANDING they release Photoshop for Linux, like over 10,000,000 users have done. Most of the major programs already have Linux ports, you just can't get them, because of the political non-sense. Adobe is still trying to work a strategy on Photoshop so they don't piss Microsoft off. Until then, they officially support many end-users on running Photoshop under WINE, even though they don't broadcast it.

Originally Posted by Venturi

The problem, IMO, with the native linux apps is frankly the UI looks like the front of a Techtronix Modular Oscilloscope. That's all fine and great for engineers and those that like to tinker, but frustratingly complex for those of us (who very well may be extremely tech savvy) that just want to get the damn job done.

Funny, I've heard the same said about Aqua from Windows users. It's all about familiarity.

Have you ever met a teenager who has never used anything but GNOME? They'd say the same thing about Windows.

Originally Posted by Venturi

Do they work? Yes. If you have the time, patience and inclination to tweak everything out, which in some cases means opening up an XML or other configuration file and manually editing settings.

Huh? Dude, I have to go into the registry under Windows far more than I ever have to run GConf in GNOME. Again, I think you're confusing "flexibility" for "usability." Yes, Linux lets you tweak all sorts of stuff. But how often do you do it? Better yet, does Microsoft really provide a GUI for everything?! Not! Heck, you often have to search for advanced management tools for Windows or hack the registry as well.

Again, don't confuse "flexibility" for "usability."

Originally Posted by Venturi

I got back into photography in part to get away from my computer, not spend even more time sitting at it.

I would not run Linux if it was a "pain in the ass." I don't sit around installing or tweaking it, I use it -- 100% from the GUI for my daily usage.

Originally Posted by Venturi

If you need some literal examples just download a trial copy of LightZone for Linux and compare its UI to that of any of the opensource solutions. I'm a bit ticked off at LZ right now as they have some support issues that need to be addressed; but even with its problems it is light years ahead of the OSS crowd in both form and function.

I thought we were talking "commerical software" for Linux? Quit switching between the two to fit the argument.

Originally Posted by Venturi

What I'm talking about is Ease of Use here. And the majority of Linux apps are still far too "geek" oriented to be commercially viable at any level - regardless of who controls what distribution channels. If MS was to implode today, Apple not Linux would rise to the top.

The majority of people use Windows, and assume Linux is "geeky." If you ever meet someone who has never used Windows, and only Linux, they would say the same thing about Windows. I have known several now.

It's all about familiarity. E.g., I prefer "focus follows mouse" instead of "click to focus." There are countless, other usability differences.

Originally Posted by Venturi

I'm not saying Linux will ever eclipse MS or Apple, or even that it should try. What I am saying is that even with all of its advances over the past five years or so it isn't even on the same continent. The fact is it can't as long as it relies on the under funded, freelance, opensource hobbiest (or bored professional) community to build it - and this has nothing to do with distribution channels.

It has everything to do with distribution channels, pre-installation, superstore hardware and software, etc....

It's the entire reason why Adobe Photoshop has not been released for Linux!

Originally Posted by Venturi

I use Linux as my primary workstation OS, and have for over a year now, because for the type of work I do (web server backend programming) it makes sense and there are now enough useable tools built for Linux that it is feasible. And I still have dual boot set up for XP on a separate hard drive and run VirtualBox as well. But if I wasn't an IT guy I'd still be running XP because despite its failings there are literally ten times as many options for software and hardware.

There are grandmothers running Linux.

Just because you can't walk into the superstore and buy any piece of hardware or software is not a "usability" issue, it's a "distribution control" matter. Don't confuse the two. Hardware support in Linux is actually better than Microsoft, because of all the subsystems provided by Linux whereas Microsoft leaves to 3rd parties.

That's why you have device conflicts and ophraned hardware with no updated drivers in the Windows world. It's the superstore profit model, with OEMs, 3rd party drivers and related non-sense. Lack of standards is a huge issue in Windows, where hardware and software vendors have to "fend for themselves" when it comes to standard APIs.

At some point, vendors are going to grow tired of the costs. But for now, for SOHO consumers, they are willing to upgrade and re-pay to do so every 2-3 years. But for industry, that's not viable or feasible at all. That's why Linux is taking over. Once that happens, home users will start running what they do at work, for work.

08-05-2008, 11:01 AM	#42
bjsmith Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Orlando, Florida (USA) Gallery Photos: 0 Posts: 238	Originally Posted by Venturi As to Linux playing catch-up, just look at hardware driver support Again, "superstore" hardware tends to be problematic where vendors not only refuse to release specifications for drivers, but they are often licensed from 3rd parties. Those 3rd parties are then not going to release specifications, because they want the OEMs to come back to them for drivers. Result? The exact same base hardware having different and incompatible drivers between OEMs under Windows. Under Linux, 1 driver rules them all, and things are far more compatible. Countless network MAC+PHY combinations in Windows have countless, fragmented drivers. I even ran into a case where Toshiba had the wrong driver on their web site for Windows, although it worked flawless in in Linux. In fact, I used Linux to get the actual firmware info so I could get the correct driver from Intel for Windows (bypassing Toshiba's incorrect download). The entire USB stack in Windows is a mix of incompatible vendor implementations, whereas the Linux stack is a "clean" harmony of inter-working drivers. I do not want to see this non-sense duplicated from Windows to Linux. In fact, a lot of Windows USB drivers for countless hardware is version specific and time limited, whereas Linux drivers are perpetual. What you want is every little nick'nack hardware you get at the superstore to come with Linux support "out-of-the-box" when the problem is the hardware vendor, not Linux. In fact, HP finally "woke up" about 3 years ago and realized it is cheaper to leverage the subsystems built into Linux than it is to outsource its Windows drivers to 3rd parties. Microsoft provides so little to base input, printing and scanning on, and that's why 3rd parties provide so much. Again, "superstore profit model" -- in Windows, there's plenty of non-sense to "fill in" whereas in Linux, the subsystems for input, printing, scanning, etc... are already provided. That's why you get lots and lots of superstore hardware that stomp on each other in Windows, etc... where you don't in Linux. Once someone discovers the little vendor id/model strings required to "recognize" the superstore hardware in Linux, it often works "as-is" without much fuss. The problem is tracking all of those stupid little OEM off-shoots of the same hardware, with their non-standard, 3rd party licensed software interfaces. Again, 100% "superstore" problem, not Linux. And some vendors, namely HP, are "coming around." Originally Posted by Venturi for keyboards, mice, Huh? I've found keyboard/mouse support to be better in Linux, not just against Vista, but XP. Originally Posted by Venturi scanners Scanners are largely software-only. But even in that case, SANE is superior to TWAIN. SANE is a complete scanner subsystem -- from GUI to network scanning. TWAIN is a bare-boned API that is not complete. SANE is available for all platforms. TWAIN is largely Windows-only and vendors products stomp on each other when you have more than a few devices. Again, the root cause is Microsoft not providing real subsystems with support, and 3rd parties stomping on each other. Furthermore, several vendors are now providing SANE support (which works on all OSes), saving a crapload of money on 3rd party licensing fees. No GUI and other components to license as they would have to for TWAIN. A few of the Chinese/Taiwanese conglomerates are now "getting on board." It all depends. But other vendors don't want to. Why? SANE comes with network-based scanning and other things that they charge mega-bucks for! Why would they want to support something that will take away their other profits, especially when network scanning software is thousands plus dozens per node? Even HP, for Windows, does this, to get you to buy newer OfficeJets -- although if you look, the SANE drivers do work under Windows too. . Again, politics at work. Educate yourself and you can do a lot with Linux out-of-the-box. The hardware support is often there! Just because the vendor doesn't give you a fold-out card and an installer in Linux doesn't mean that a Linux system won't auto-detect and use the hardware automagically! Red Hat's kudzu is pretty good at finding new hardware at boot, including scanners, and GNOME SANE and other support is pretty good. It's been awhile since I've had to "manually" configure anything in Linux when it comes to scanning. The only "troublesome" hardware are the printers and scanners that use the simplistic Windows GDI. If you're using the Windows GDI for your printer/scanner support, you deserve the issues you get in Windows on their own -- seriously. Originally Posted by Venturi and even fundamental components like GPUs. Huh? nVidia pretty much makes most of its margins on high-end Linux workstations and server chipsets. I can't help it if Intel keeps screwing up their chipsets and GPUs with little hardware changes that break backward compatibility, but nVidia has been outstanding. ATI has also been very good. Originally Posted by Venturi nVidia has done a pretty good job of supplying tools for Linux for its cards but it still isn't a seamless integration with xorg. That's an IP issue, one that involves lots of patents. nVidia originally "opened" its driver almost a decade ago, and got cease'n desist letters from Intel, Microsoft and SGI. Even Windows ships without support for the latest GPUs, and you have to load drivers. Now I think you're complaining more about "pre-installed" v. "user install" issues that are not Linux. I.e., ever try to load Windows XP on a new system? Driver hell. Originally Posted by Venturi Matter of fact Xorg has a long way to go in supporting multi-function mice and keyboards without the user having dig into the configuration files and heavy use of prayer. Apparently you haven't used the GUI tools. Also, don't confuse "flexibility" with "usability." Just because Linux ships a lot of capabilities that are flexible doesn't mean you have to use them all. E.g., Samba (a great example of this) lets you emulate just about any Windows Server version and finely tune any parameter, but you can set it up in a "stock" configuration -- like a Windows Server -- with a simple GUI. Again, don't "mark off points" on Linux for adding more options when Microsoft does not. I have no problem using multiple keyboards, mice, etc... on the root X-Server (:0.0) without configuring jack. If I want to have multiple X-servers running, yeah, I have to dive into that. But since when does Microsoft offer the equivalent? Even Terminal Services has its limitations (and is hardly designed for "end-users"). Originally Posted by Venturi As far as application ware, I'm going to stick to photo/image manipulation software as this is a photographic oriented forum. Then send an e-mail to Adobe DEMANDING they release Photoshop for Linux, like over 10,000,000 users have done. Most of the major programs already have Linux ports, you just can't get them, because of the political non-sense. Adobe is still trying to work a strategy on Photoshop so they don't piss Microsoft off. Until then, they officially support many end-users on running Photoshop under WINE, even though they don't broadcast it. Originally Posted by Venturi The problem, IMO, with the native linux apps is frankly the UI looks like the front of a Techtronix Modular Oscilloscope. That's all fine and great for engineers and those that like to tinker, but frustratingly complex for those of us (who very well may be extremely tech savvy) that just want to get the damn job done. Funny, I've heard the same said about Aqua from Windows users. It's all about familiarity. Have you ever met a teenager who has never used anything but GNOME? They'd say the same thing about Windows. Originally Posted by Venturi Do they work? Yes. If you have the time, patience and inclination to tweak everything out, which in some cases means opening up an XML or other configuration file and manually editing settings. Huh? Dude, I have to go into the registry under Windows far more than I ever have to run GConf in GNOME. Again, I think you're confusing "flexibility" for "usability." Yes, Linux lets you tweak all sorts of stuff. But how often do you do it? Better yet, does Microsoft really provide a GUI for everything?! Not! Heck, you often have to search for advanced management tools for Windows or hack the registry as well. Again, don't confuse "flexibility" for "usability." Originally Posted by Venturi I got back into photography in part to get away from my computer, not spend even more time sitting at it. I would not run Linux if it was a "pain in the ass." I don't sit around installing or tweaking it, I use it -- 100% from the GUI for my daily usage. Originally Posted by Venturi If you need some literal examples just download a trial copy of LightZone for Linux and compare its UI to that of any of the opensource solutions. I'm a bit ticked off at LZ right now as they have some support issues that need to be addressed; but even with its problems it is light years ahead of the OSS crowd in both form and function. I thought we were talking "commerical software" for Linux? Quit switching between the two to fit the argument. Originally Posted by Venturi What I'm talking about is Ease of Use here. And the majority of Linux apps are still far too "geek" oriented to be commercially viable at any level - regardless of who controls what distribution channels. If MS was to implode today, Apple not Linux would rise to the top. The majority of people use Windows, and assume Linux is "geeky." If you ever meet someone who has never used Windows, and only Linux, they would say the same thing about Windows. I have known several now. It's all about familiarity. E.g., I prefer "focus follows mouse" instead of "click to focus." There are countless, other usability differences. Originally Posted by Venturi I'm not saying Linux will ever eclipse MS or Apple, or even that it should try. What I am saying is that even with all of its advances over the past five years or so it isn't even on the same continent. The fact is it can't as long as it relies on the under funded, freelance, opensource hobbiest (or bored professional) community to build it - and this has nothing to do with distribution channels. It has everything to do with distribution channels, pre-installation, superstore hardware and software, etc.... It's the entire reason why Adobe Photoshop has not been released for Linux! Originally Posted by Venturi I use Linux as my primary workstation OS, and have for over a year now, because for the type of work I do (web server backend programming) it makes sense and there are now enough useable tools built for Linux that it is feasible. And I still have dual boot set up for XP on a separate hard drive and run VirtualBox as well. But if I wasn't an IT guy I'd still be running XP because despite its failings there are literally ten times as many options for software and hardware. There are grandmothers running Linux. Just because you can't walk into the superstore and buy any piece of hardware or software is not a "usability" issue, it's a "distribution control" matter. Don't confuse the two. Hardware support in Linux is actually better than Microsoft, because of all the subsystems provided by Linux whereas Microsoft leaves to 3rd parties. That's why you have device conflicts and ophraned hardware with no updated drivers in the Windows world. It's the superstore profit model, with OEMs, 3rd party drivers and related non-sense. Lack of standards is a huge issue in Windows, where hardware and software vendors have to "fend for themselves" when it comes to standard APIs. At some point, vendors are going to grow tired of the costs. But for now, for SOHO consumers, they are willing to upgrade and re-pay to do so every 2-3 years. But for industry, that's not viable or feasible at all. That's why Linux is taking over. Once that happens, home users will start running what they do at work, for work. __________________ Bryan J Smith, Engineering Consultant, Photography Novice Striving for Amateur Abilities Pentax K20D, AF-360 FGZ, DA 10-17 f/3.5-4.5 FE, DA* 16-50 f/2.8, DA* 50-135 f/2.8, DA 50-200 f/4-5.6, FA 80-320 f/4.5-5.6 Taken with: Pentax K100D, DA 16-45mm f/4 Last edited by bjsmith; 08-05-2008 at 11:17 AM..