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04-20-2007, 02:10 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote

Actually, only measurbation and comparison will tell the answers! :-)
I'm a bit unclear on the term "measurbation", and I'd never heard it before, and thought I'd end up looking pretty silly if I didn't know what it meant, so I looked it up on Dictionary.com.

measurbation - Definitions from Dictionary.com

According to them, it's a typo, and I still feel pretty silly. I'm way too old and/or clumsy to try it while using my camera... though apparently there's quite a market online for photographs like that...

04-20-2007, 02:14 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Classvino Quote
According to [dictionary.com], it's a typo, and I still feel pretty silly. I'm way too old and/or clumsy to try it while using my camera... though apparently there's quite a market online for photographs like that...
Depends on how cute you are.

Tasteless joking aside, what worries me is that at least one person using this word here doesn't seem to be aware that everybody else regards it as the sort of thing you don't want to boast about doing.

Will
04-20-2007, 03:07 PM   #33
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This has to be one of the All Time Funniest threads in PF since its inception. Thanks for the laff everyone.
04-20-2007, 03:13 PM   #34
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Another test of that there trigger finger...

Shoot Superman

A run around the block, a couple of Cokes and some loud '70s Rock---got the sheep down in under 0.200 seconds.

Ouch, that's (almost) as bad as Will's comments.

04-20-2007, 09:11 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
:Google is my friend: Lag list one, and Lag list two. Not much on Pentax equipment. I've got a Pz1-P; I think both the K100d and the K10d are faster--significantly.
Interesting. I have a Fujifilm Finepix F31fd, which has a tested shutter lag of about 0.02 seconds (Fuji claims 0.01 seconds). After spending a weekend with a friend's Canon 30D, I kept thinking: weird, this image is an instant behind what I thought I was getting. Now, some of that was surely operator error -- and in fact, I think specifically it was that I was failing to anticipate correctly as I'm used to doing, because I was expecting the camera to be more instant. (When actually, by the above charts, it's several times slower.)
04-20-2007, 10:14 PM   #36
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I suspect every camera ever made has some sort of shutter lag. As I jokingly replied to Jonas' post, sense and reason are on the side of the operator who spends a little time in familiarization. In general, I think what most people will find or figure-out for themselves: dSLRs are fast, but not instant; they are remarkably consistent shot to shot given any particular set of shooting parameters (this is part of their high cost!); and the operator can and must adapt.

As to the results in those links-don't put to much stock in those figures. Little or nothing is said about testing conditions, testing equipment or the testing personal abilities to operate either the testing equipment or the devices tested. They are just more numbers for those who 'get-off' on such things.
04-20-2007, 10:16 PM   #37
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To Christian - Well, I have de-coupled Focus from the shutter button. Believe me --- there is no shutter lag - no matter what it "sounds" like. If your ears can discriminate between sounds that happen so quickly - then d*mn your hearing is better than most dogs. If the AF is still connected to the shutter button and you just push it - the system will focus before it fires the shutter. For those who do not care - it could appear as shutter lag.

To RH - the blackout of the mirror moving has nothing at all do with shutter lag. The mirror moves at the same speed - regardless of shutter speed - the longer black out means ======= wait for it ======== a longer exposure - not a slow mirror.
The new C*non is as fast as it is because it uses two motors - one to reset the shutter and another one to flip the mirror. It is a very expensive camera because it is optomized for high shutter speeds. Makes you think that the new C*non mantra would be "blast away - one of them has to be a keeper".

PDL
04-20-2007, 10:38 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
For grins and chuckles I searched for both shutter lag and human reaction time--do it your self, there is a wealth of information. The best trained reaction times are about 150ms; compared to a 50-60ms shutter lag it seems to me that humans are still the limiting factor.
It is not the "limiting" factor, the time lags are *cumulative*. If human reaction time is at 150 ms at best and typical low end slow SLRs are of around 200ms (supposed AF has been achieved in advanced, or MF is in use), then the total time delay in taking the picture is 350ms.

For a high end SLR of 75ms, say the Nikon F3, the total lag time before the picture can be taken is 225ms, or 0.225s. In contrast, for a EOS Rebel which has a 200 ms system lag, the total lag time can be 0.350s, which is 40% more, even when you count also the human reaction time.

Furthermore, Pentax do have a special designed shutter release button to shorten the human reaction time, that can be found in the MZ-S. For anyone who is interested to find out, try out the MZ-S and compared to other Pentax (D)SLRs yourselves.

Finally, I think you should google for one more time, for the keywords of "EOS RT", then you will know why there have been such cameras were made!

04-20-2007, 10:43 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Interesting. I have a Fujifilm Finepix F31fd, which has a tested shutter lag of about 0.02 seconds (Fuji claims 0.01 seconds). After spending a weekend with a friend's Canon 30D, I kept thinking: weird, this image is an instant behind what I thought I was getting. Now, some of that was surely operator error -- and in fact, I think specifically it was that I was failing to anticipate correctly as I'm used to doing, because I was expecting the camera to be more instant. (When actually, by the above charts, it's several times slower.)
DSLRs have mirror and thus there must be mechanical delay for the mirror flipping.

P&S Rangefinder DCs/dSLRs have no mirror, mechanically there is no delay. But the CCDs/CMOSs are being used for preview on the LCD and resetting the imagers before taking the actual picture requires time. If the imagers are designed to have very short reset time required, then the digital rangefinders can actually be *much* faster than the DSLRs - mechanical barriers are much difficult to be broken through than electronic one.
04-20-2007, 10:46 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
To RH - the blackout of the mirror moving has nothing at all do with shutter lag. The mirror moves at the same speed - regardless of shutter speed - the longer black out means
PDL
I think I have said something similar in one of my last replies.. But there are more to consider. The longer the system/shutter lag, the long black out time it will be. For the rest, it is for the time required for the mirror to come down and back to its seating position.
04-20-2007, 11:23 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
It is not the "limiting" factor, the time lags are *cumulative*. If human reaction time is at 150 ms at best and typical low end slow SLRs are of around 200ms (supposed AF has been achieved in advanced, or MF is in use), then the total time delay in taking the picture is 350ms.

For a high end SLR of 75ms, say the Nikon F3, the total lag time before the picture can be taken is 225ms, or 0.225s. In contrast, for a EOS Rebel which has a 200 ms system lag, the total lag time can be 0.350s, which is 40% more, even when you count also the human reaction time.

Furthermore, Pentax do have a special designed shutter release button to shorten the human reaction time, that can be found in the MZ-S. For anyone who is interested to find out, try out the MZ-S and compared to other Pentax (D)SLRs yourselves.

Finally, I think you should google for one more time, for the keywords of "EOS RT", then you will know why there have been such cameras were made!
I think everyone needs a refresher course in physical applications of what lag really is and how is doesn't accumulate.

Lag 1: Focus
Lag 2: Recognizing the opportune moment to take the shot
Lag 3: Actually hitting the shutter
Lag 3: time is takes for the pressure on the shutter to actually begin the real action
Lag 4: Time it take for the camera to do the math
Lag 5: Time it takes for the rest of the action to complete (mirrors, exposing the ccd, SR, etc.)
Lag 6: The camera reseting itself for the next shot

Okay some where between lag 3 and 6 you physically notice whats going on... not added to it. DUH! Come on simple stuff here.

Another interesting point for RH is the fact that humans become HYPERSENSITIVE to certain things that happen in a regular fashion. Lets say driving a car for instance. When you drive a race car around the track most of your day at 200mph and then that night you drive around town at 45mph you seem like you're driving 20mph. This effect happens to us on a constant basis. Like with photography, once you get used to a certain speed of things happening you notice a change from one camera to the next.

Example: My first digital camera was a Sony P3 and boy did it take a long time to take a shot. I finally upgraded to a istDL and it seemed like everything was instantaneous. Now I've upgraded to a K10 and that seems even faster than the istDL did, even more instantaneous! After months and months of taking pictures you will eventually become so used to the speed of things its the "norm" to you. Any change in either direction whether it be slower or faster seems EXTREMELY different. This is fact and cannot be disproved by RH or anyone related to him.

RH example: One who sits in the lab and hits the shutter 10 million times with one camera and then 10 million with the other will see a difference, but only because he's become adjusted to the one and not the other.

The K10 can't have a lag of more than .33333333 seconds plus or minus a hundreth of second here or there because it has a 3fps continuous shooting mode. How did I come up with this... 1 divided by 3 equals .3333 repeated. Technically any camera with a 3fps has at best a .3333 second lag.
04-20-2007, 11:29 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
It is not the "limiting" factor, the time lags are *cumulative*. If human reaction time is at 150 ms at best and typical low end slow SLRs are of around 200ms (supposed AF has been achieved in advanced, or MF is in use), then the total time delay in taking the picture is 350ms.

For a high end SLR of 75ms, say the Nikon F3, the total lag time before the picture can be taken is 225ms, or 0.225s. In contrast, for a EOS Rebel which has a 200 ms system lag, the total lag time can be 0.350s, which is 40% more, even when you count also the human reaction time.

Furthermore, Pentax do have a special designed shutter release button to shorten the human reaction time, that can be found in the MZ-S. For anyone who is interested to find out, try out the MZ-S and compared to other Pentax (D)SLRs yourselves.

Finally, I think you should google for one more time, for the keywords of "EOS RT", then you will know why there have been such cameras were made!
You miss the point, again--nothing new there. THE BEST HUMAN TIMES ARE 150MS; the best here meaning those highly trained individuals whose reaction time is critical---that ain't nobody here (that I'm aware of). A more typical human RT is on the order of 250ms or 500ms or even 750ms---hell that's enough time for the shutter to trip accidentally and return before the human part of the equation even wakes up. In real simple terms: it ain't the shutter that keeps you from getting the shot!

It's not about having a hair trigger, it's about practice and timing and a sense of what is happening right before your eyes and lens. Nothing measurbating can give any measure of or for.


Yeah, yeah, yeah--your beloved MZ-s; again. Ever wonder why so few got made and distributed?

And I know about the EOS-RT--that's just plain off-topic-not a dSLR, not even an SLR; and a fluky small niche toy at that.
04-21-2007, 12:18 AM   #43
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Ill agree about this thread being one of the funniest. Ive seen most of them too, thanks to being here almost from the start of the boards.

QuoteOriginally posted by jfdavis58 Quote
Check this out: Sleeping sheep. I placed near the bottom classification-and I shoot sports! Ha Ha
I got the middle one. Alas, i havnt had my afternoon caffeine hit yet :ugh:
04-21-2007, 12:40 AM   #44
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Mirror up - mirror down == same amount of time regardless of shutter speed

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I think I have said something similar in one of my last replies.. But there are more to consider. The longer the system/shutter lag, the long black out time it will be. For the rest, it is for the time required for the mirror to come down and back to its seating position.
OK - You do not "get it".
The time it takes for the mirror to go up - and the time it takes to return is constant regardless of the shutter speed. The only variable is the amount of time the shutter takes for those times when the blades of the shutter expose the entire sensor.
These cameras use vertical focal plane mechanisms - the blades of the shutter move at the same speed regardless of overall shutter speed. At low speed the first blades (there are three I believe - at least there are three on my SF1) open and the last blade moves at the end of the cycle to cover the shutter - and at what maximum shutter speed is the entire sensor exposed? 1/180 of a second - X sync speeds. That is how focal plane shutters have worked for the last century - maybe you should do a little research - eh?

At shutter speeds over 1/180th of a second the exposure is made as the shutter blades are best describes as creating a slit moving across the sensor (and in this case it is the same in film or digital). So how long does it take the shutter blade to move across the sensor - no longer than the fastest shutter speed say 1/4000 of a second? The actual time it takes to expose a 1/200 or 1/3000 of a second image is about the same in absolute time from mirror movement to mirror back down - that is because the exposure is defined by the distance between the shutter blades as they move across the sensor.

The time of "black out" is constant once the shutter speed is above 1/180th of a second. Shutter lag - as discussed here - is the amount of time between pushing the shutter button to when you "hear" the shutter fire. As I said - if you can "hear" the difference - then your hearing is better than a dogs. As for the C*non 20D and the new one - the overall mirror up to mirror down will be shorter - because their FPS is higher. But to define this as "shutter lag" is not correct.

PDL
04-21-2007, 03:52 AM   #45
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Hellooo

1) Bobbing bobcat on my 4th go - I kept jumping the gun before.

2) The magazine article it mentions it in was in May's "Digital SLR User". It is an advertisement feature for the K10D so make of that what you will....

3) Thanks for your replies. One thing I didn't think of which makes the pentax cameras sound so different is the SR, so thanks for that whoever pointed that out.

I wish I hadn't mentioned 'shutter lag' as it confused the issue. It was merely the sound of the shutter which I wasn't loving. Next time you're in a camera shop, compare the two (at same settings etc, blah blah... ) and you'll see what I was referring to...

It's not a biggie... I do trust Pentax's shutter lag spec to be true... it just sounded like some sort of lag/didn't feel as confident as when I hit the canon's buttton.
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