AF-360FGZ defect or user error?

Panache · 11-01-2009, 06:31 PM

I took a "Minimal Lighting" course this weekend. I learned that either a] my flash sucks! or b] it has a defect or c] I don't know how to use it properly.

Forgive me, I am a flash-newbie and may not use the correct terminology - I will try my best to help you understand.

As per the teacher's instructions I was to set my camera to:Manual mode; Wireless flash; Auto Focus [WB to Daylight, ISO 200, f5.6] Set to Channel 2

I had my flash set to: S/Slave 2, Sync mode set to the first option on the slider; Manual Mode

Here's the problem....
When using the Adjustment Range [1/1, 1/2, 1/4..etc.,] I would get proper exposure ONLY in the 1/8, 1/16, or 1/32 powers. In full power [1/1] , 1/2 and 1/4 I would get a BLACK image. The 360 FIRES, but does not illuminate [hard to explain this]. When in these ranges the flash makes a faint clunk sound that does not occur in the other ranges.

I am still learning the flash, but this problem seemed consistent no matter what other settings I used.

Any ideas/opinions/suggestions?

Thanks,

*Ash* · 11-01-2009, 06:41 PM

Odd.
Do you have any photos (with intact EXIF data) to post up to show us this phenomenon?
What shutter speed did you set on the camera?
So the flash mode you had it on was the front curtain sync? or the rear curtain sync? First option on the slider is the front curtain (green mode) AFAIK, but just want to confirm that.

You know your flash works as it exposes right with those lower settings, but why it doesn't blow you images out (ie. white out) at the higher settings is beyond me...

Panache · 11-01-2009, 06:51 PM

I took over 200 photos at the course. Not sure I can figure out which one was which! Perhaps I'll do an experiment tomorrow and post some examples then.
I 'think' I had tried other flash mode settings as well. Is the green mode the one it should be on?

*Sew-Classic* · 11-01-2009, 06:56 PM

Just a thought- how fresh are your batteries?

I had my flash set to: S/Slave 2, Sync mode set to the first option on the slider; Manual Mode

Slave mode 2? If you are using a DSLR, set it to slave mode 1 (see page 49 of the manual)

*Ash* · 11-01-2009, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Sew-Classic

Slave mode 2? If you are using a DSLR, set it to slave mode 1 (see page 49 of the manual)

Shouldn't matter if Channel 2 is used on both flash and body - you could switch both to 1 but I'm not sure that will fix the problem - worth a shot...

*Sew-Classic* · 11-01-2009, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ash

Shouldn't matter if Channel 2 is used on both flash and body - you could switch both to 1 but I'm not sure that will fix the problem - worth a shot...

Yep, the channel isn't the issue. Slave mode and channel are two different settings.

"If the AF360FGZ is set to SLAVE2 with____(DSLR) the AF360FGZ will operate and flash at the control flash before the picture is taken" (as mentioned above- see page 49 of the manual).

Anyhow, this sure could result in black photos.

Panashe:

The 360 FIRES, but does not illuminate

- sounds like it could be firing at the control flash before the picture is taken- just a thought.

If using this with a DSLR, set it to SLAVE1 mode- and the channel of your choice

Panache · 11-02-2009, 01:03 PM

Second paragraph on page 49 says: "Set to SLAVE 1 for *ist, MZ-S or MZL/MZ-6/ZX-L camera and to SLAVE 2 for all other cameras." Mine is a K200d, so it's an "other"!...
However, I DID manage to get some images. But in the three I tried [1/1, 1/8 and 1/32] I see no discernible difference in flash output.

Leaving the settings as they were after my workshop yesterday, here are some samples.
If you leave me a reply, remember that I am new to external flash and I require very basic explanations!!

Panache · 11-02-2009, 01:07 PM

The LAST three images were shot with SLAVE 1. [1/1, 1/8/ 1/32] = not much difference between the three.

I also noticed while fiddling around with the settings that the Synchronization Mode Indicator never changes on the display screen - no matter what mode I'm in.

*Ash* · 11-02-2009, 01:43 PM

Debb, now try shooting the same with the flash on the hotshoe (so no longer wireless) - any changes there?

Notice also with the 3 shots that are illuminated by the flash, the light seems to stop falling over the bottom third of the teddy bear. Is it because the flash is angled away from the bottom and the light is not reaching its feet?

The thought just occurred to me... are you using the K100D? are you trying to trigger the 360 flash with the K100D's popup flash? This is not possible with the K100D. Only way you can fire an off camera flash with the K100D is to have a P-TTL flash as a control mounted in the hot shoe. Could this be the issue?

*Sew-Classic* · 11-02-2009, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Panache

Second paragraph on page 49 says: "Set to SLAVE 1 for *ist, MZ-S or MZL/MZ-6/ZX-L camera and to SLAVE 2 for all other cameras." Mine is a K200d, so it's an "other"!...

Yeah, it seems like a K200D would be "other", at the time the book was written, the k200D hadn't it the market yet. The AF360FGZ manual wasn't updated with the names of newer DSLR's. So, wherever you book says "*ist", you can mentally insert "K200D". That's as clear as mud, huh??

Your camera exposure settings and ambient light will also have some affect on how noticeable the flash will be. Flash gun placement and angle will play a role too.

ETA:

How do you have the built in flash set as far as discharge in wireless mode? If you really want to be able to see as much discernable difference between the flash power output at the various manual levels (1/1, 1/2, etc), then you want the built in flash to only act as a controller. Per the K200D manual, go to the custom setting menu #16, and select option 2 (off).

*Sew-Classic* · 11-02-2009, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Panache

I also noticed while fiddling around with the settings that the Synchronization Mode Indicator never changes on the display screen - no matter what mode I'm in.

When the unit is not mounted to the camera hot shoe and the camera set up with the required settings (ie for rear curtain the shutter speed must be 1/60s or slower) then indicator wil not change- normal operation.

Deb, FWIW, I used a slr many moons ago, but I never fiddled with flash apart from TTL or auto mode, and that was sooooo long ago. I recently just dipped my toes into the DSLR flash world, and I also had more than my share of WTF moments.

*SOldBear* · 11-02-2009, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Panache

I had my flash set to: S/Slave 2, Sync mode set to the first option on the slider; Manual Mode

Here's the problem....
When using the Adjustment Range [1/1, 1/2, 1/4..etc.,] I would get proper exposure ONLY in the 1/8, 1/16, or 1/32 powers. In full power [1/1] , 1/2 and 1/4 I would get a BLACK image. The 360 FIRES, but does not illuminate [hard to explain this]. When in these ranges the flash makes a faint clunk sound that does not occur in the other ranges.

I don't have the 360 but I think the setup is similar to that of the 540, of which I have 2 copies.

When you set the flash to "slave 2," the flash is in the "dumb" optical slave mode. That is, it will fire whenever it sees a strobe, any strobe from any flash.

In your setup, the on-board flash is in wireless P-TTL mode. In wireless P-TTL, there is a weak pre-flash strobe from the on-board flash to measure how much light from the flashes (on-board flash and remove flash) will be needed during actual exposure, then the on-board flash will fire the main strobe telling the slave flash to fire. Note that there is no feedback from the slave flash to the camera body to tell the camera body what mode the slave flash is in. The camera assumes the slave flash is in "slave 1" mode.

Since the slave flash is in "slave 2" mode, it fires at the first strobe (the "pre-flash" strobe) of the on-board flash. Note the during this time, the shutter is still close.

When the on-board flash fires the main strobe, the slave flash tries to fire too. If the previous flash it fires (triggered by the pre-flash strobe) is set at 1/8, 1/16, or 1/32 power, the slave flash still has energy to fire. But if it is set at, say, full power, the slave flash is still trying to charge, and thus does not fire at all. The result is a severely underexposed photo.

If you want to verify this, set the camera to 2 second self timer.

The fix: set the remove (slave) flash to "slave 1" mode.

Originally Posted by Panache

The LAST three images were shot with SLAVE 1. [1/1, 1/8/ 1/32] = not much difference between the three.

Let's not use manual mode yet. Set the slave flash to P-TTL and see what happens. You may want to experiment with the flash EV compensation setting.

*Sew-Classic* · 11-02-2009, 04:11 PM

Deb, perhaps this control sample will help you determine if your flash is defective. My gut feeling is that you just need to get a bit more familiar with it.

AF360FGZ flash set to slave mode 1, chanel 1, zoom 24mm, Manual flash power settings for the first few, and PTTL wireless for the last one. Front curtain sync (green one with the bolt and right pointing arrow) K-7 Camera on "M" mode, ISO 200, f/10.0, shutter 1/60s. The camera flash set to controller mode.

And the winner is:

Panache · 11-02-2009, 07:38 PM

...My gut feeling is that you just need to get a bit more familiar with it.

''

I suspect you are probably right!

The reason I was using Manual mode was per directions of the instructor at the weekend workshop. All other times I have used the flash in P-TTL mode with no problems so far.

I need a bit to soak in the responses you've all been so kind to reply.

As I said, I'm a newbie flash user so some of this is a little over my head!!

I'll play around a bit more and see what happens.

Thanks again.

*Sew-Classic* · 11-02-2009, 07:50 PM

Debb,

While you're playing, make yourself one of these:

DIY Reflector-Diffuser

My local craft store sells the foam in 3mm sheets- this requires no stiffner.

Use fabric glue or liquid stitch to hold it all together- it stays flexible. I already had the velcro and glue on hand, so the whole thing only cost me about $2, inc. tax and was super quick and easy to make. I just love it. If you had to buy the glue and velcro- add another $3. (buy the non adhesive velcro in a 3/4 or 1/2" wide strip- Joanns sells it in a 1 yd package for about $1- cut and glue on with the fabric glue- save $)

I use the manual powersetting in slave mode for my product (old sewing stuff) photography to light the wihite back drop- PTTL just wouldn't do for that at all.

I've been where you're at, and understand how you feel- you'll get there- just keep at it!