For those about to Flash questions!

cb750r · 11-06-2009, 09:15 AM

I am ready to take my first steps into flash photography, and I've been researching the hell out of it and I'm kinda at a crossroads,

Buy a new Pentax 360 or 540, as I want to shoot wireless,

OR

Buy a set of remote triggers and some good old cheap flashes like the AF280T, that will also function decently in auto mode on camera...

Is the Range of a the triggers like flashwaves, and Cactus V4s better than the wireless function built into the 360 540??

My main desire for wireless flash is to stop motion in some mountain bike photography, when shooting in the woods (lower light)

Do either the triggers or the flashes work ok when direct line of site is not possible to the flash?

*Sew-Classic* · 11-06-2009, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by cb750r

OR

Buy a set of remote triggers and some good old cheap flashes like the AF280T, that will also function decently in auto mode on camera...

OK, a few observations about the AF280T. I had this flash and played with it.

What I liked

Cost
size
tilt & swivel

What didn't suit me:

The auto mode worked by actually dictating the aperture setting to your camera. There may be some work arounds for that. I didn't explore it fully.

The manual settings were limited- only 2 levels of output to chose from.

I would look for a flash that had at least 6 manual flash oputput levels if you plan to use it with the wireless triggers. I'm pretty sure that with the wireless flash triggers, you cannot use the PTTL mode. You'd be using strictly manual flash output control.

With the Pentax AF360FGZ and the AF540FGZ, you have wireless Manual and PTTL modes. With some other flashes, such as the Metz 48, you only have PTTL when used in wireless slave mode.

How do you plan to use your flash wirelessly? For me 75% of my wireless use is in manual mode, but ocassionally I use the PTTL.

cb750r · 11-06-2009, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by Sew-Classic

How do you plan to use your flash wirelessly? For me 75% of my wireless use is in manual mode, but ocassionally I use the PTTL.

I'm not too sure, from what I gather, Pttl preflashes to set exposure, then flashes and captures the image.

Will this be fast enough to capture motion?

Do the flashes like the AF280t work in Auto mode while being triggered wirelessly? I thought they had their own light sensor to determine flash output?

Any comments on the Pentax 360 or 540's built in range or line of site capabilities?

this attached photo is typical results with on camera flash in the woods,

This is what I want to achieve:

MPrince · 11-06-2009, 10:00 AM

My 2 cents: Nikon SB-24 flash(es) and Cybersync triggers. You can usually find SB-24s at KEH Camera: Used Cameras, Digital Cameras, Film Cameras, Laptop Computers and More. and the Cybersyncs can be found at AlienBees: Illuminating the Galaxy with Professional Photographic Lighting Equipment

cb750r · 11-06-2009, 10:16 AM

wow the alien bees website is horrible!

do cybersyncs have hotshoe mounts for the flash? or just PC cords? Less cable and such = easier to use/ pull out of backpack for me!

kenyee · 11-06-2009, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by cb750r

Is the Range of a the triggers like flashwaves, and Cactus V4s better than the wireless function built into the 360 540??

Without a doubt, especially in sunlight.
The "wireless" function in p-ttl (and Canikon equivalents) is done via optical pulses. No clue why they did this except to save money and avoid RF testing in various countries.

No, the expensive triggers (cybersyncs, radiopoppers, pocket wizards) don't have hotshoe connections...you have to buy a hotshot to connect a pc cord to.
Flashwaves, Cactus V4, CTR301, RF602 do but each system has compromises...

*Sew-Classic* · 11-06-2009, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by cb750r

I'm not too sure, from what I gather, Pttl preflashes to set exposure, then flashes and captures the image.

Will this be fast enough to capture motion?

Do the flashes like the AF280t work in Auto mode while being triggered wirelessly? I thought they had their own light sensor to determine flash output?

OK, then you will need to be able to do high speed sync wirelessly. The AF280T, is not capable of high sped sync even from the hot shoe. The max shutter speed that the flash will work with is 1/180. I don't imagine that will be fast enough to freeze action in the manner you want.

HSS can be used in wireless with some of the PTTL capable flashes, but not when using the camera's on-board flash as the controller. You'll need a flash gun capable as a controller in the hot shoe.

I'm not sure how the various radio wave triggers handle HSS.

*mtroute* · 11-06-2009, 03:52 PM

consider the Metz 48 af as well, they are less than the Pentax 360 but give you more power, full swivel, high speed sync (on camera) The 48's will only act as a slave, if you need master and slave (you would for Wireless HSS) you need to have at least one Metz 58 to act as the master, but all the slaves could be 48's. Both can be used as wireless slaves with the pop up acting as master (no HSS).

*Sew-Classic* · 11-06-2009, 04:37 PM

FWIW, there no manual flash output control (1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc..) on the Metz 48. When used in wireless slave mode, the metz 48 it PTTL only.

*mtroute* · 11-06-2009, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Sew-Classic

FWIW, there no manual flash output control (1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc..) on the Metz 48. When used in wireless slave mode, the metz 48 it PTTL only.

That's true but you can use the pTTL flash EV compensation to get up to +1 and down -2 EV while in wireless.

alohadave · 11-06-2009, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by cb750r

I'm not too sure, from what I gather, Pttl preflashes to set exposure, then flashes and captures the image.

Will this be fast enough to capture motion?

Do the flashes like the AF280t work in Auto mode while being triggered wirelessly? I thought they had their own light sensor to determine flash output?

Any comments on the Pentax 360 or 540's built in range or line of site capabilities?

this attached photo is typical results with on camera flash in the woods,

This is what I want to achieve:

Second image is from James Healey, a friend, and ALL RIGHTS RESERVED!!

You need to go to Strobist and read Lighting 101 and Lighting 102.

*Sew-Classic* · 11-06-2009, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by mtroute

That's true but you can use the pTTL flash EV compensation to get up to +1 and down -2 EV while in wireless.

Yep, there is that, but it doesn't give you the same sort of control that true manual mode does over the flash output. I'm sure for some, if not most situations it works fine. I tried it, and for what I needed the compensation in PTTL slave mode not a subsitute for manual flash power control.

I'm not knocking the flash, just adding some insight from personal experience with it. Heck, I liked it so well that I considered getting some radio flash triggers so that I could have manual flsh power control with it in a wireless situation.

*mtroute* · 11-06-2009, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sew-Classic

Yep, there is that, but it doesn't give you the same sort of control that true manual mode does over the flash output. I'm sure for some, if not most situations it works fine. I tried it, and for what I needed the compensation in PTTL slave mode not a subsitute for manual flash power control.

I'm not knocking the flash, just adding some insight from personal experience with it. Heck, I liked it so well that I considered getting some radio flash triggers so that I could have manual flsh power control with it in a wireless situation.

No worries, I actually agree that the lack of true output control could be a disadvantage.

*NeverSatisfied* · 11-06-2009, 09:15 PM

To reiterate what Sew-Classic said, sounds like you'll be wanting High-Speed Sync. HSS operates via the P-TTL only; there are no radio triggers currently available for Pentax (and I don't think much for any other brands yet either), that will do HSS. I have used the FlashWaves, and their max sync is 1/180. And of course they don't do TTL/P-TTL, you'd be using your flashes on "A" or manual. (Although for the money, they work very well and have a lot of good features with plenty of range. Peter Zack and Gene'sPentax have commented on them extensively.)

So then you're stuck with the optical "wireless" P-TTL system with Pentax 540, Sigma 530 Super, Metz 58, etc. AND, if you want off-camera HSS you'll need at least one extra flash unit mounted on-camera as the commander, which adds quite a bit to your cost. (Especially nowadays, geez have prices gone up!) I've never tested the range but of course on a bright sunny day it could be problematic. I'm sure it's pretty limited, maybe some others who've done that testing might chime in.

I don't know, if it were me shooting action stuff like the mountain bikes, radio triggers at the standard sync speed (or less) might not be so bad. I've seen examples of slow-sync used for skateboarders and such, that look great. Good luck!

Mike Cash · 11-07-2009, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Sew-Classic

OK, then you will need to be able to do high speed sync wirelessly. The AF280T, is not capable of high sped sync even from the hot shoe. The max shutter speed that the flash will work with is 1/180. I don't imagine that will be fast enough to freeze action in the manner you want.

The duration of the flash pulse is the effective shutter speed, and that is way way way way faster than 1/180 and more than capable of stopping action.