Help! Possible Copyright Issue

[maxwell1295]

I'll try to make this as simple as possible. Even though I've read similar happenings here on these pages, I'm still somewhat stunned so bear with me.

I work on a college campus......a very scenic one at that. Instead of pigging out during my lunch break, I walk around and take photos. These photos cover everything from building interiors to architecture to flowers to monuments. In other words, there are a variety of images to be captured.

Just recently, I new operator was brought in to build a new campus store. This company is an entity to its own and is not employed by anyone at the school. They are here to provide the service of operating this store. Anyway, today was the informal "Grand Opening" of this store (there's a more formal ribbon cutting ceremony scheduled for next week). I decided to stop in and take a look around during my daily photo walk. You know what's coming next next, don't you?

I walk around the store and see one of my pics blown up to poster size. I know for a fact it was mine and have the original file (with the necessary EXIF data) to prove it. Not only that, I printed out a copy of the photo for a direct comparison to be sure. It's definitely mine. I didn't want to make a big stink about it, especially because I work there, but I felt the need to let the manager know that it was my pic. I was a little miffed, but didn't show it when I approached her.

I went on tell her that it was my pic and that I'd at least like some credit since it was hanging up as a display in the store. It wasn't for sale or anything (that's a whole different story that's connected to this), just displayed as a general "campus scene" photo. I didn't get upset until she said, "We sent our own photographer up here and he took photos all over campus."

Naturally, I was heated.....not because the photo was there, but because she (the manager) had the audacity to lie about it!

I discreetly took a photo of the framed print for "future" reference. 3 hours later, the pic was still there, so she obviously blew me off about this whole thing. My next step is......well, I don't know what my next step is. I'm tempted to go right over her head to the top of the company and let them know that I've been violated (at least that's how I feel). Had she told me that someone just gave it to her (which is probably what happened), it really wouldn't be a big deal as long as I got a nice big photo credit. Now I'm pissed, but don't want to do anything without getting some feedback.

What alternatives do I have here?

What are my rights?

Do I have anything to stand on?

What should I do in a situation like this?


This is my first encounter with something like this, so I could sure use some friendly advice.

[jmdeegan]

any idea where they got the image?

i mean...ill believe its yours,but you know the fun involved in proving that....they can argue its the same scenery but someone else was at the same spot with the same light, etc etc

curious about the other story re: selling, but more curious where they got the image.

i think it would be fair for them to provide source proof,and if in fact they cannon, to give you some credit. doesnt cost them much to put your info on the picture,and its not like you are suing them...

[Gooshin]

do you have any pull with the campus authorities?

i would request the name of this photographer and if he's any good he should have his own backup with exif stored somewhere.

if she refused, maybe use your pull (if any) to pressure her into being more cooperative.

[Nesster]

Just a question - where did they get your image from? Have you posted it or uploaded it to some online site? Not that people necessarily follow the rules, but what are the licencing / copyrights on the online site? Maybe you can get the site's help with this issue as well.


And another question: was the poster size blow-up good

[IsaacEastgate]

You need to be really persistent. Get this manager's contact details, get all angry, and send them letters. If they don't reply just complain to someone higher up. Maybe best even to go straight to the top of this chain(?) with a formal letter. The annoying thing is, once you've complained to everyone, if they still choose to ignore you and lie to you there's not much you can do without getting a lawyer. Its really shit. If you get any hint of them giving you this bull anymore you need to make it clear that you are willing to sue (even if you aren't). That should get them interested.

I think you've done really well so far though.. good luck, and if all else fails, protest at the grand opening ;p

whats this "different story that's connected to this"

can we see your photo

[Damn Brit]

Hi Alan, this is pretty sucky. If this is a large company then you should contact them, there must be someone who handles PR issues. They may not be aware of it and a phone call or email might resolve the issue.
Is there any law taught at the college where you work?
If you want to go guerrilla on them, photocopy that shot (make sure copyright is clearly on it) and when no one is watching, glue it to that blow up they have.

[little laker]

Personally I'd get either a notarized letter, or better yet a letter through a lawyer stating the facts. And that you may press charges under the copyright law

Originally Posted by Damn Brit

If you want to go guerrilla on them, photocopy that shot (make sure copyright is clearly on it) and when no one is watching, glue it to that blow up they have.

That sounds like the easiest idea Gary, or better yet why not just sign it.
If they complain or try suing you over it you'll have proof that it was originally your work

[song_hm]

Originally Posted by Damn Brit

Is there any law taught at the college where you work?

Perhaps some law professor or enterprising law student would take up the cause...

[SpecialK]

Yes, where did they get it?

[maxwell1295]

How did they get the image?
I emailed the pic to someone that worked in the area the pic was taken. He's pretty pretty high up in the administration. My guess is that this company wanted to use some images for their displays and this person (or someone else in his email chain) may have given them that image. They had at least 5-6 of these images throughout the store, but only one of them was mine. They could've gotten the other images from just about anyone. I haven't taken any action yet, because I didn't want to do anything rash until I've slept on it for a while.

I'm just wondering whether the burden of proving the image is theirs is on them or if the burden of proving that it's not theirs is on me.

[maxwell1295]

Originally Posted by jmdeegan

any idea where they got the image?

i mean...ill believe its yours,but you know the fun involved in proving that....they can argue its the same scenery but someone else was at the same spot with the same light, etc etc

That would be difficult to do. Not impossible but definitely not eay to do. There are some backround elements that change quite a bit from day-to-day. This person would've had to have been right next to me waiting for me to move so he/she could duplicate the shot. They also would've had to blow the same highlights in the same spots as I did.

curious about the other story re: selling, but more curious where they got the image.

The day before (yesterday) I briefly spoke with this same manager about selling some images/postcards through the store. I wouls set a price, sell to them, and then they would mark thwm up to their price. The previous company had a similar arrangement with another photog and I wanted to get in her ear first. Since they're just opening, things are hectic so she asked me to wait until things died down. I said no problem. When I spoke to her today (to let her know about my pic) I was very cordial and low key. I even said that I had much better images than that (I do) and that we would have our meeting at a later date and discuss a sales agreement. That's when she said that their own photog shot all of those pics. One of the reasons I didn't say much was that I didn't want to burn that sales bridge. I'm almost at the point that I don't care. I'm not sure I want to go that route anyway because it may devalue my work. I think I can do better by selling direct during big weekend events.

[hinckc]

Hi Maxwell1295,

As I see it, unfortunately, it's not really a question of whose burden of proof it is to show ownership...

My first discussion would be with the guy I gave the picture to.

I would confront him first, asking if he had distributed the picture beyond his own personal use. The store owner doesn't know the origin of the photograph... Think in terms of a person who purchased a stolen TV at a pawn shop. They obtained the item from a seemingly legitimate source.... In your case, why should the shop owner you spoke to feel guilty?

Problem is, if you didn't make it clear you were providing him license strictly for his own personal use, you're already on a slippery slope.... Here's the reasoning: If someone gave me something for free, and it was without cost to duplicate that item, why would I assume that the copies had any value? The originals were free, why not the "free" copies?

Do you own the copyright? yeah. of course.

Did you act in good faith to protect said copyright? That question is far more debatable, unless you made it very clear verbally (and better in writing) that he couldn't give this picture out like candy.

I am NOT a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice, but I'll bet you'll struggle to "win" this one, in any kind of legal setting. I'd start with your first distribution point and pursue why they distributed your work beyond your intended scope.

And far more importantly, in the future, make sure you make clear the rights you're providing when giving away a "free" photo to someone else. This single step is your best defense against the problems you're currently facing.

I guess what I'm saying is that you should watermark or otherwise "protect" those things that you want protected, and not just hope for good will when dealing with "the public". Walmart (and most legitimate print shops) won't make a poster sized print of a picture with a copyright indication on it, unless you're willing to sign that you're the copyright holder. Since I started using Adobe CS3, I put copyright information into the exif of each DNG file as I copy it to my computer.

Would you leave your car unlocked with valuables inside on a busy street on Long Island?
Try making an insurance claim with no sign of forced entry. Even in your home. I've read many stories of refusal to pay claims where the property owner didn't take basic precautions to protect their property... Your photo and copyright is your intellectual property... So protect it!!!!

I get complaints on every other photo post I make here on Pentax Forums, because of my arguably distracting watermarks. Do I feel bad? NOPE! Failure to protect your own property is tantamount to saying it has no value.

My guess is that this one is a "lesson learned" and that's that. That said, I wish you luck in your pursuit. But be careful not to burn bridges where it's not a "clear cut case" of fault in the violation of your copyright, most especially because you work there, and that job probably pays for your photo equipment...

-Chris

[rmtagg]

yikes, that must have been a surreal experience seeing your work on the wall with out permission! You will have to let us know what you decide to do. Hm, what size file did you email him that could be blown up poster size???

[StarDust]

Originally Posted by rmtagg

Hm, what size file did you email him that could be blown up poster size???

When I send pictures to friends or post them on the internet I try to keep the resolution under 800*600 so that reproduction of the file would be quite pointless. Also I put a little (c) with my initials in some corner of the picture.

[Slick]

You may want to read this from the US Copyright office...

Copyright Office Basics

Depending on how far you want to go with this you may want to officially register the image with the copyright office. How to register is in the link as well.

Slick