What's happening with the Pro-Photographers? - Page 2

Gooshin · 08-22-2008, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by superbass

I think amateur photographers sometimes place too much emphasis on the word pro. Being pro is really subjective. I'm sure if you talked to a group of wedding, nature, or artist photographers (all professionals in their own respect) they would all have very different opinions on what it is to be a professional photographer.

for those that havent read my controversial post... heheheheh, more wood to the flame! burn! burn!

photography "professional"

*Ash* · 08-22-2008, 03:20 PM

Gooshin led a thread discussing 'what constitutes being a pro photographer' recently with lots of input. It's all subjective, but pros get paid for getting top results everytime.

Couldn't agree more with Mike. You don't have to be paid to be good. Conversely, just because one gets paid, doesn't necessarily mean they're good. But the vocation will never have too many top photographers - they're in a class of their own - intuition, people skills, and technical skill all available on demand...

*Ash* · 08-22-2008, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gooshin

for those that havent read my controversial post... heheheheh, more wood to the flame! burn! burn!

photography "professional"

Beat me to it.

*benjikan* · 08-22-2008, 04:10 PM

A Pro Photographer doesn't even think "Re-Shoot"..That is Blasphemy to a client!

That is the distinction.

Ben

mel · 08-22-2008, 05:27 PM

This has been an interesting thread to me due to my "profession." I am, in my regularly paid job, a librarian. The minimum qualification for the "professional" position in libarary land is a Master's degree in the field, which I hold. When I was in grad school, the internet was starting to come into it's own and all the gloomers and doomers were saying this profession, and libraries as a whole would soon go away.

It's funny. The public library where I work has been busier than ever. We have adapted our skill set and our services to meet the changing needs of the public we serve and wow lookee, we're still around. I even had one patron come in and proceed to bash libraries and librarians, calling us obsolete dinosaurs, then ask me to find some information for him. Hello.

The stock photography business may be forever changed, but photography as a profession will not survive or die based on the stock photography business alone. As long as there is a market for images, there will be a market for those who can produce specific images on demand. I don't by any means consider myself a professional, but when I have been paid to shoot, it's been a particular thing at a particular time for a particular purpose (and I am doing so again on Monday!). They have been one opportunity, get it right the first time, situations.

But I guess I'm just one of those upstart amatuers with a nice camera.

superbass · 08-22-2008, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Gooshin

for those that havent read my controversial post... heheheheh, more wood to the flame! burn! burn!

photography "professional"

That was a good post. I think it's sad how little we actually think about the context of our words. Anyway, I think most people assume a pro makes their living from photography, works for a well known employer, or regularly publishes their work. While I may not agree with you fully Gooshin, I do believe that we should not call photographers professional. The work and reputation of a photographer should speak for itself.

I worked at a camera shop not long ago, and I was always surprised at how little the "pro's" knew about their cameras or the craft. On one occasion, a local newspaper photographer, who was interviewing our manager, couldn't figure out how to work his camera. I think that's unacceptable (I'm still slightly upset about the way I was treated when I tried to apply for a job at the newspaper). There were also the numerous "pro" wedding photographers who relied on our kiosks to auto enhance and crop every single picture on their memory cards. I'm not proposing that we should all have an extensive knowledge of the circuitry in our cameras. However, I do think that if you label yourself as a professional, you should at least understand white balance and know that all lenses don't zoom...

*navcom* · 08-22-2008, 06:09 PM

OK folks, the sky is not falling!

Sorry, but negativity is one of my pet peeves. The media and the world is so quick to point towards the "end of the world" and 9999% of the time they are completely wrong....yet we still listen to them!

Every new technology that is introduced is immediately followed by the doomsayers who say the world will collapse because of it. I can remember when the PC became popular it was supposed to spell the end of the secretary or administation specialist or any one of countless other jobs. Quite the contrary, it has produced a whole new slew of jobs; data entry, IT specialist, network administrator, web administrator, programmers, and on and on...all jobs that mostly did not exist before the computer.

Another example? The robot. Detroit wasn't going to need humans anymore. They were just going to buy robots and replace everyone. Quite the contrary. Now we have a more valuable workforce composed of more technically advanced workers, many who used to work before the robot who have been retrained to be even more valuable than before.

Digital photo equipment will not spell the end of the professional photographer...it will only help the pro be even better. It's just a tool. It's the photographer that makes it "sing". And that is because of composition skills...skills you don't get by taking 10,000 images and getting a lucky shot.

I have a question. Why should anyone even attempt to be a web developer? I mean, you can buy web design software just about anywhere extremely affordable so you can make your own website. The software makes it extremely easy too. So why are there still web developers?? It's two-fold. First, most normal people simply don't have the time to devote to learning everything about developing a website and maintaining it. They might try a personal site, but not a commercial site. Second, they would rather pay a professional to do it right to have a better chance of getting the results they want from their site.

Photography is no different.

What digital photo equipment has done is introduce change into the industry...change that is always inevitable in every industry every day of every year. Adapt and overcome. It's always been that way.

I'm sure when they first introduced the neighborhood drugstore photo lab, the doomsayers probably said it was all over for the pro photographer....now everyone can develop their own pictures affordably so they might as well pack it up!

*Damn Brit* · 08-22-2008, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by mel

But I guess I'm just one of those upstart amatures with a nice camera.

No, you are one of those nice upstart amateurs with a nice camera.

Is that how all librarians spell amateur?

Seriously though, you made a good point Mel. Whenever new technology comes along there are always doomsayers killing off the older technology but it doesn't always die.
As you said, the people using said technology adapt.
Another case in point, I have been a DJ on and off for the last thirty years and people kept saying vinyl was dead. The truth is, vinyl sales are on the rise and it is cd's, the technology that was supposed to have killed vinyl, that seem to be dying.

As for the professional photographers of the calibre Yvon mentioned, it is the same in every profession, cream always rises to the top. There is a lot of cream though so there are always other elements involved. Luck, right place right time, knowing the right people.

As Yvon said "DSLR's are now affordable for the masses". This just creates new opportunities for professionals (and not so professionals) because those masses want to learn how to use their cameras. Hence the workshops and the books flooding the market and don't forget all the associated software. A few years ago Yvon probably couldn't have produced her book because the market wasn't there. Now we are spoilt for choice and have to hope we get the right one. Don't forget though that it doesn't matter how good the camera is, it's the glass that really helps to get the good shots and, at the moment, that glass is still relatively expensive (unless you own a Pentax).

It's definitely tougher out there for anyone who wants a career as a photographer because anyone with a dslr can take some shots, print them and hold an exhibition. This can be good for all of us because it is opening up new markets. Why go to a big store and buy a poster that everyone else has when you can go and buy an original photograph for not too much more.

It doesn't matter how good, or different, the technology becomes, there will always be a need for artists to get the best out of that technology. It could be you or I.

*Damn Brit* · 08-22-2008, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by navcom

I have a question. Why should anyone even attempt to be a web developer? I mean, you can buy web design software just about anywhere extremely affordable so you can make your own website. The software makes it extremely easy too. So why are there still web developers?? It's two-fold. First, most normal people simply don't have the time to devote to learning everything about developing a website and maintaining it. They might try a personal site, but not a commercial site. Second, they would rather pay a professional to do it right to have a better chance of getting the results they want from their site.

Our posts overlapped somewhat in subject matter, great minds eh.

To answer your question, people hire web developers not just to set up their websites but also to maintain them and fix them when they go wrong so forgive me for saying so but that wasn't the best example. Nevertheless your point still rings true.

People also hire photographers for their weddings etc. and some of the examples I've seen would get laughed off the forum if they were posted here. I think things like that are more dangerous to professional photography because some of these so called "photographers' give the good ones a bad name.

deejjjaaaa · 08-22-2008, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by navcom

Detroit... Now we have a more valuable workforce

yes, you have... no need to wonder why Toyota settled on KY, WV, AL, etc - but not Detroit.

*navcom* · 08-22-2008, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Damn Brit

To answer your question, people hire web developers not just to set up their websites but also to maintain them and fix them when they go wrong so forgive me for saying so but that wasn't the best example. Nevertheless your point still rings true.

People also hire photographers for their weddings etc. and some of the examples I've seen would get laughed off the forum if they were posted here. I think things like that are more dangerous to professional photography because some of these so called "photographers' give the good ones a bad name.

Actually, you kind of made my point about the web developer comparison. As I said in my post, most normal people don't have time to learn how AND maintain the site. The fact is, people go to a pro photog for just those reasons....they get more for their money than just a picture, just like the web developer gives you more than just the code. First, they get an artist who knows how to take the picture right the first time. They also get service. As a couple off-the-cuff examples, most pro photogs order/make frames and some even develop web sites!

I understand your point about the bad ones giving the good ones a bad name. I tend to not fall into that too much. I like to look at it as the bad photogs make the good ones look even better!

I say bring on the cheap photogs and let them try. We all have to start somewhere and it's a free market where opportunity should be for everyone. The competition also serves to make the pro even better. The alternative is a caste market where only the "chosen" get let in. This usually results in a very expensive, lower quality product and terrible service.

On top of that, as an example, the pro wedding photog is usually serving a market quite different than the ametuer family member with his new $1500 camera. The pro's market are those who want the best and are willing to pay for it. Those who hire cousin Joe are most likely not willing to dish out the cash for the pro anyhow....which is why they asked Joe to begin with. The fact is, the pro is really not competing with Joe in this scenario. He's in a different market.

Every industry has their "cheap imitations"...those who charge next to nothing and give you a shabby product in return. It just serves to point out that you get what you pay for. It doesn't cheapen the pro, it makes the pro shine.

*navcom* · 08-22-2008, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa

yes, you have... no need to wonder why Toyota settled on KY, WV, AL, etc - but not Detroit.

Point taken!

But it wasn't because of robots.

reeftool · 08-23-2008, 11:48 AM

I remember a few years ago the predictions that sampled music and computer programers would replace musicians. There is an audience for sampled stuff but the musician/artist is in no danger unless the whole population turns into a bunch of tasteless morons. Imagine a National Geographic full of cropped stills taken from Joe Tourists camcorder. Who would buy it?

*navcom* · 08-23-2008, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by reeftool

Imagine a National Geographic full of cropped stills taken from Joe Tourists camcorder. Who would buy it?

Bingo!

k10dbook · 08-23-2008, 03:30 PM

I don't think that Joe tourist will populate the pages of National Geographic either, but by the shear number of Digital Cameras being sold, some of the buyers will turn out to be excellent photographers, and yet not necessarily Professional Photographers. The source for good photographs will be (and is already nearing that point) 10 folds what it is today. There will be a notably reduction in printed books, magazines and printed photographs as a whole. With the internet and Stock agencies getting good photographs from the entire planet via the internet and selling them for peanuts,, good photographs will be cheaply available to publishers wether they will publish in printed form or through the internet and digitally. There will always be a demand for wedding photographers, camera operators for Wal-Mart type of photograhic studios, but nature, landscape, travel, etc, Pro-Photographers opportunities will undoudebly diminish. The point of this post is that I believe the famous Pro-Photographers are more-or-less showing that they are hurting now by giving seminar, lectures, and workshops. They wouldn't have time for those if they were as busy as they were 10 to 15 years ago.

I am not saying that Pro-Photography is done with. I embrace technology and progress.

At one time, the mode of transportation was horses and horses and buggies. They have been replaced with automobiles, trains, airplane, etc, but there are still people using horses and buggies...just not as many.

Regards