Shutter Shudder?

acbees · 09-06-2008, 07:28 AM

Wanted to take a picture of my wife and I while hiking on a trail on vacation. Hadn't brought the tripod, so just nestled the K20 down on the top of my camera bag and used the shutter delay. Took 3 shots mostly because of facial expressions (don't ever let your wife count down the seconds till the shutter clicks, at least not out loud anyway

). At a quick glance the shots didn't look too bad in the LCD. After I got home and downloaded them I found that each one of them was fuzzy. Not OOF fuzzy, but vibration fuzzy. I don't ever remember having this trouble with my ME or my Program. Have taken plenty of shots using stumps or rocks or logs as a "tripod" with favorable results.
This got me to thinking. I've had trouble getting crisp shots using my tripod. It's not fancy or the best quality(OK some might call it cheap

, bought it at BestBuy), but had worked fine with the camcorder. Have used the same tripod with bellows and the Program, though I did have the end of the lens supported, and got great results. Had used 2 sec. shutter delay with a 300mm Tamron SP with less than satisfactory results. As a matter of fact, I'd pretty much quit using that lens because of it. Yet while on vacation I used that same lens to take some pictures handheld from a moving boat that came out fine. I purchased a remote to use with my macros on the tripod and haven't been really satisfied with the crispness of many of those shots. It's not an SR problem, I've tried both ways, on and off. Sometimes I've actually had better results handheld.
Guess I've got few questions. Is this shutter vibration? Is the shutter action different in the digital than in the film bodies? It seems I was able to get good shots before just resting the camera on just about anything. Do I have a poor tripod problem? Just how far would I need to go to have an adequate one? Are there any precautions I can take with the one I have? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Arvin

*sinus007* · 09-06-2008, 10:10 AM

Hi acbees,
I don't know what camera you're using but I doubt that the shutter vibration in any of kXX(X)d cameras can affect the cam. I have k200d, so with a lens it's about 1kg - a lot of mass for tiny-miny shutter mechanism to move.
As for the actual reason for fuzziness, I don't know. Maybe the cam mis-focused. Sorry - can't be of much help here.

acbees · 09-06-2008, 10:28 AM

Sorry, sinus007,
... about not mentioning the model and thanks for the reply. It's a K20. I also thought there would be plenty of mass, at least not that much different than the old film bodies. I was using a manual lens when shooting from the camera bag and have mostly manual lenses. I re focused each shot from the bag. Besides, nothing in the shot was in focus. Will certainly be more careful about this sort of thing in the future.
Arvin

little laker · 09-06-2008, 10:33 AM

The SR turns off while using the 2 second delay anyways, so it wouldn't be that.

My guess is it's a lens issue, although don't throw it out or sell it. It might just be an issue with digital or possibly even just your actual body.

If I was having the problem I'd take the time to go through all the f-stops with this lens, and hopefully find a sweet spot. Then just use that spot whenever I'm using it.

acbees · 09-06-2008, 11:23 AM

little laker,
Thanks for your response and the info on the SR. This is only an issue I've experienced when having the camera mounted on the tripod or, even more seriously so, when I had it on the camera bag. I've had it happen with the Super Macro Takumar 50mm, Tamron SP 90mm, L A Dine 105mm, and Tamron SP 300mm on tripod, and most recently with the Tamron SP 35-85mm adaptall 2 CF macro on the bag. It seems to be just a stationary problem.
Guess I'll just have to try and repeat the situation and results. Really appreciate the suggestions. Hopefully with all the help we'll get to the answer.
Arvin

*Damn Brit* · 09-06-2008, 11:30 AM

How about showing us the shot's, it's a bit hard to comment without seeing the problem sometimes. The ones that you took on the bag for example, fuzzy is fuzzy to me, if vibration causes fuzziness, it must also make it OOF. You might have just knocked the focus out when you pressed the shutter button or you just may have not focussed properly because you were in an awkward position.

There's a big difference in weight between a camcorder and a DSLR with a lens on. You're trusting a $1000 dollar camera with a several hundred dollar lens on it to a tripod that probably cost you about $40? Ouch, that's an accident waiting to happen.

acbees · 09-07-2008, 09:37 AM

Gary,
Sorry about the delayed response. Got occupied with other things yesterday and couldn't get back with you till this morning.

Originally Posted by Damn Brit

There's a big difference in weight between a camcorder and a DSLR with a lens on. You're trusting a $1000 dollar camera with a several hundred dollar lens on it to a tripod that probably cost you about $40? Ouch, that's an accident waiting to happen.

Guilty as charged. It appears from another post of yours you will be familiar with my tripod, a Sunpak 5800D. Maybe I could try weighting it. Seems as if I might need to start looking for a better tripod.

Back to the "resting on the bag" problem. Took things outside this morning and shot just a couple" off the bag" and didn't duplicate the bad results. I could have accepted the 'knocked out of focus' or 'not focusing properly' reasons had it happened once, but setting the camera back down at the same bad spot to rotate the lens OOF or not getting the right focus three times in a row would be quite the coincidence. Not impossible, but would seem unlikely. MF lenses are about all I use. Anyway here's one of the three "from the bag". Each of the three have identical results. The farther away the fuzzier. I would think at this distance I would have to have knocked out or missed focus by a great deal for at least some part of the shot not to be in focus. I chose this one cause my wife probably wouldn't be real happy with me if I displayed the other two.

Appreciate your help. By the time it's all said and done, maybe I just screwed up!
Arvin

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IsaacEastgate · 09-07-2008, 11:46 AM

Looks sharp down at the bottom of the frame... the area thats in focus.

stevebrot · 09-07-2008, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by acbees

Gary,
Sorry about the delayed response. Got occupied with other things yesterday and couldn't get back with you till this morning.

Guilty as charged. It appears from another post of yours you will be familiar with my tripod, a Sunpak 5800D. Maybe I could try weighting it. Seems as if I might need to start looking for a better tripod.

Back to the "resting on the bag" problem. Took things outside this morning and shot just a couple" off the bag" and didn't duplicate the bad results. I could have accepted the 'knocked out of focus' or 'not focusing properly' reasons had it happened once, but setting the camera back down at the same bad spot to rotate the lens OOF or not getting the right focus three times in a row would be quite the coincidence. Not impossible, but would seem unlikely. MF lenses are about all I use. Anyway here's one of the three "from the bag". Each of the three have identical results. The farther away the fuzzier. I would think at this distance I would have to have knocked out or missed focus by a great deal for at least some part of the shot not to be in focus. I chose this one cause my wife probably wouldn't be real happy with me if I displayed the other two. Appreciate your help. By the time it's all said and done, maybe I just screwed up!
Arvin

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The sole of your wife's boot appears to be in focus, though little else is. I think that focus is probably the culprit.

Steve

acbees · 09-07-2008, 12:38 PM

Maybe this will help. Cropped from the original. I could agree it's more in focus, but nothing in the whole picture is sharp. At that distance something should be sharp somewhere. I focused the first shot, then lifted the camera to look at the LCD then replaced it and focused again for each shot thereafter. Three identically out of focused shots in a row?
Arvin

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Compared to this crop, handheld of my wife in the same spot taken from the same distance.
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IsaacEastgate · 09-07-2008, 01:14 PM

maybe if you are using the autofocus mode which is green then it is focussing on the plants because they are the closest thing. I dont know, i use the centre point mostly

stevebrot · 09-07-2008, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by acbees

Compared to this crop, handheld of my wife in the same spot taken from the same distance.
[IMG][/IMG]

Yeh, that second shot is definitely sharper. Since it was taken with flash, you might be on to something regarding the camera motion thing. The 100% crop of the original image does seem to indicate motion, though there still may be a focus issue to complicate things. There is also a lot of digital "noise" in the original crop.

Out of curiosity...was your tripod fully extended (including the center column) and was there a breeze?

Generally, my experience with my K10D has been that the shutter/mirror vibration is pretty minimal. On the other hand, the smaller sensor (relative to 35mm film) accentuates any vibration that is present. I have learned to be very aware of wind and ground vibration (passing trucks) when working on my "cheap" Slik consumer tripod if the I have the center column extended. There is also the vibration that may arise from that last touch-of-the-camera when pressing the shutter button. Even that can set up a pretty significant "hum" in the tripod.

Steve

acbees · 09-07-2008, 03:29 PM

Steve,
The shot of my wife and I was taken with the camera resting on top of the camera bag, not on a tripod. I didn't really "mash it down" into the bag when I set it down, it just rested there. As I said in an earlier post, I was unable to duplicate the results this morning with just a couple of shots from the bag. It appears that whatever it was, settling on the bag, shutter vibration, out of focus, or any combination of these, I screwed up somehow and need to be doing something about providing a solid mount for my camera from now on.
Thanks to you and all for your suggestions and ideas.
Arvin

*Mike Cash* · 09-07-2008, 04:29 PM

What lens were you using? I checked the EXIF and it shows 45mm. Also what aperture?

The fuzzy shot was at 1/90 and the sharp handheld shot was at 1/125, so I don't think shutter speed was a factor here.

Was the lens a zoom? If so, is it possible that between focusing and setting the lens down the barrel shifted just a bit.

Was the aperture wide? If so, were you careful to focus the camera as precisely as possible right exactly where the bag was? Not standing behind it or in front of it?

acbees · 09-07-2008, 04:55 PM

Mike Cash,
I'm obviously guilty of not supplying enough info or explaining exactly what I was dealing with in the picture. Sorry about that. I was using a Tamron SP 35-80mm adaptall 2 f/2.8-3.8 CF macro. Aperture was in the f/11 range. The bag the camera was setting on was high enough that I was able to see through the viewfinder and focus while it was sitting on the bag for each of the 3 shots.
Thanks for your questions.
Arvin