Can they really do this?

Gaelen · 01-12-2008, 10:06 AM

I stumbled across this thread on one of my car club forums....It's interesting to see that ford actually tried to stop someone from producing their own photos

2008 BMC Calendar - NOT Available due to Ford - See Inside! - Black Mustang Club Forums

I got some more info from the folks at cafepress and according to them, a law firm representing Ford contacted them saying that our calendar pics (and our club's event logos - anything with one of our cars in it) infringes on Ford's trademarks which include the use of images of THEIR vehicles. Also, Ford claims that all the images, logos and designs OUR graphics team made for the BMC events using Danni are theirs as well. Funny, I thought Danni's title had my name on it ... and I thought you guys owned your cars ... and, well ... I'm not even going to get into how wrong and unfair I feel this whole thing is as I'd be typing for hours, but I wholeheartedly echo everything you guys have been saying all afternoon. I'm not letting this go un-addressed and I'll keep you guys posted as I get to work on this.

I'm sorry, but at this point we will not be producing the 2008 BMC Calendar, featuring our 2007 Members of the Month, solely due to Ford Motor Company's claim that THEY own all rights to the photos YOU take of YOUR car. I hope to resolve this soon, and be able to provide the calendar and other BMC merchandise that you guys want and deserve! This thread will remain open for you to comment however you wish, and I'll update it as needed.

Thanks for all your support of the BMC!!

smokey · 01-12-2008, 11:26 AM

I guess I had better not take any pictures of my Expedition and post them! That is just crazy.

stewart_photo · 01-12-2008, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Gaelen

I stumbled across this thread on one of my car club forums....It's interesting to see that ford actually tried to stop someone from producing their own photos

Ford is not stopping anyone from "producing their own photos." Individuals can photograph whatever they like. However, when it comes to any form of publishing (web pages, etc) or merchandising (calendars, etc), Ford solely owns the right to it's own name, the name "Mustang," the Ford logo, the Mustang logo, likenesses of its products, and/or artwork depicting same. That's the law (link to article) and it's been the law for well over a hundred years (since 1881 in the USA). Trademarks are protected by international treaty today, with every country (including Canada) having similar laws.

stewart

**-=JoN=-** · 01-12-2008, 10:22 PM

they could simply ask for permission to reproduce said images....
it's being massed produced so...yeah...they can do that...

Gaelen · 01-13-2008, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by stewart_photo

Ford is not stopping anyone from "producing their own photos." Individuals can photograph whatever they like. However, when it comes to any form of publishing (web pages, etc) or merchandising (calendars, etc), Ford solely owns the right to it's own name, the name "Mustang," the Ford logo, the Mustang logo, likenesses of its products, and/or artwork depicting same. That's the law (link to article) and it's been the law for well over a hundred years (since 1881 in the USA). Trademarks are protected by international treaty today, with every country (including Canada) having similar laws.

stewart

So that being said...If I wanted to make a calendar of some of my images from drifting days I'd have to get permission from ford if there was a ford? It seems kind of odd to me.

little laker · 01-13-2008, 11:03 AM

I wouldn't hesitate submitting pictures of my Tempo (it's a great car, so don't laugh, with the factory Diesel motor I get well over 50mpg.... US gallons) for anything.
But then again, since Ford isn't paying for ad space on my car I had anything with their name removed, and the holes filled in.
So they can't say much.

JCSullivan · 01-13-2008, 02:57 PM

I'll chime in. Are you sure it's the photographs they're talking about!!!!????
The photo is only representing what is being seen - same way a newspaper does - and that's for profit. I would suggest taking this further and that includes a legal counsel.

Hell I would get hold of the Vancouver Sun or its twin.

Good luck.

PDL · 01-14-2008, 12:51 AM

You might want to take a look at this site:
Legal Pitfalls in Taking or Using Photographs of Copyright Material, Trademarks and People
Play close attention to Section 2:

Taking an image of a Trademark is in itself not a infraction. However, if it could be assumed that the use of the Trademark means that image is sponsored, approved or supported by the Trademark owner, that could become an issue.

I would imagine that if the club had asked Ford, they may have been given permission to use the Trademark. But given the size of the toilet that American auto manufacturers are sinking into - they most likely would have said no. Just be careful - Trademark is not the same as copyright - if you own the Trademark - yes you can stop people from displaying it.

The Elitist - formerly known as PDL

stewart_photo · 01-14-2008, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by Gaelen

So that being said...If I wanted to make a calendar of some of my images from drifting days I'd have to get permission from ford if there was a ford? It seems kind of odd to me.

That's right, Gaelen. Read the article I linked to. While you might indeed own the car, you don't own the Ford name, logo, vehicle design, or similar (known collectively as "intellectual property"). These things belong to Ford and only Ford has a right to say how they're used. And they most certainly have not given consent for you to make money from the use of their name or intellectual property.

stewart

stewart_photo · 01-14-2008, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by little laker

I wouldn't hesitate submitting pictures of my Tempo (it's a great car, so don't laugh, with the factory Diesel motor I get well over 50mpg.... US gallons) for anything. But then again, since Ford isn't paying for ad space on my car I had anything with their name removed, and the holes filled in. So they can't say much.

Actually, since Ford spent many millions designing and marketing the shape, layout, and look of your Tempo (and you didn't), they can indeed say something. Again, the design, shape, layout, likeness, and so on, of a vehicle is called intellectual property and, under international trademark laws, Ford has complete ownership of those things.

Think about it for a moment, Stu. You own the photographic images you take. This is your intellectual property. If I took one of your images and simply removed your name, would you feel that gives me the right to do whatever I want with your image - say it's mine, sell it, make money, and so on? Now apply the same logic to Ford's intellectual property.

stewart

*Mike Cash* · 01-14-2008, 02:49 AM

And to dispell a misconception that often crops up on the internet.....whether something is being done for profit or not is entirely irrelevant to the protections afforded by copyright and trademarks.

Some aspects of this sort of thing seem strange at first glance. For instance: I once translated a Japanese novel just for the heck of it....to see if I could do it. I've shared it via PDF with a few people, and just between you and me it has been used by a couple of universities in Canada. Some people have told me I ought to try to get it published.

Problem is....I can't. I don't own it. Oh, I own my translation, but it is a derivative work and the original author holds copyright to the story, which is just as it should be. And copyrights extend to derivative works.

Keith · 01-14-2008, 03:12 AM

I have a dis-like of over zealous companies when it comes to protecting their trademarks but in this instance I believe Ford has a right.

The photo's that I have seen in the calender do show the car, logo and shape very well and no other subject material of any significance.

If the photo's had the owner sitting on the car or the photo,s where showing what modifications or recent sleek paint job then I feel they would be ok. These photo's need to be showing something other than just Ford's trademarks.

cheers
Keith

little laker · 01-14-2008, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by stewart_photo

Actually, since Ford spent many millions designing and marketing the shape, layout, and look of your Tempo (and you didn't), they can indeed say something. Again, the design, shape, layout, likeness, and so on, of a vehicle is called intellectual property and, under international trademark laws, Ford has complete ownership of those things.

Think about it for a moment, Stu. You own the photographic images you take. This is your intellectual property. If I took one of your images and simply removed your name, would you feel that gives me the right to do whatever I want with your image - say it's mine, sell it, make money, and so on? Now apply the same logic to Ford's intellectual property.

stewart

In all reality Stewart my Tempo looked more like the Mercedes Ford copied after I changed the grill, lights and bumpers.

So it isn't really their design anyways.

Car companies are famous for this practice. Ford copied the Dodge pickup, and Chevy did the same thing a few years later.

After some of these people re-design their car bodies isn't it like saying that you can't publish your photograph of that fence, because I photographed it first. And had my work published

OniFactor · 01-14-2008, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by stewart_photo

Actually, since Ford spent many millions designing and marketing the shape, layout, and look of your Tempo (and you didn't), they can indeed say something. Again, the design, shape, layout, likeness, and so on, of a vehicle is called intellectual property and, under international trademark laws, Ford has complete ownership of those things.

Think about it for a moment, Stu. You own the photographic images you take. This is your intellectual property. If I took one of your images and simply removed your name, would you feel that gives me the right to do whatever I want with your image - say it's mine, sell it, make money, and so on? Now apply the same logic to Ford's intellectual property.

stewart

so, each time a car magazine wants to run a 5 page spread on Mr XYZ's hot customized 197x Ford Burrito, the magazine has to go through all the legal motions to contact ford and make sure it's okay? i doubt it.

this is just a case of ford having a right to do something, but it's not helping anyone. i mean, seriously, that's like some movie star suing someone for starting a fan club. guess how many fans are gonna be left, after that? all they're doing is shooting themselves in the foot.

stewart_photo · 01-14-2008, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by OniFactor

so, each time a car magazine wants to run a 5 page spread on Mr XYZ's hot customized 197x Ford Burrito, the magazine has to go through all the legal motions to contact ford and make sure it's okay? i doubt it. (snip)

The press, including newspapers, magazines, and similar, are covered by the various "fair use" clauses of the Trademark laws and the "freedom of the press" clause of the United States Bill of Rights (First Amendment to the United States Constitution). However, even a magazine or newspaper does not have the right, without consent, to sell a calendar featuring the intellectual property of another party (in this case, Ford) or create a "Ford" or "Ford Mustang" website.

By the way, don't get mad at me about this. It's the law and it has been such for many, many, years. I didn't create the law. I'm simply reporting what it says. So, if you have a problem with the law, you need to be arguing with someone else other than me. The same if you have a problem with Ford's actions in this situation.

stewart