Yes, I've gone to the dark side...

solarisdreams · 08-24-2008, 12:02 PM

warning: I mention Nikon gear and will probably be accused of dissing pentax and plugging other gear. If you're sensitive about this, don't read on. If you're interested in my k20d + DA* experience, read on. In anycase, leave the flame thrower at the door please.

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fyi, i have been blessed with a K20d, DA* 16-50, 10month baby, and a dog (among other things). The camera combo kills me when trying to capture pretty much anything that likes to move around lots. I have to say after 5 days of reading and 3 weeks of shooting, the AF (body) and SDM (lens) make for a not-very-desirable hit/miss ratio in terms of pictures in focus.

Call it my lack of technique, call it superior/inferior gear. I'm not here to say either way. But I just wanted you and most importantly PENTAX to know that I just tried the D300 today and it walks all over the K20d. Ofcourse, this is only with MY shooting technique which is pretty much point and shoot. Yes, I can fiddle around with the settings, but at the end of the day, I want the camera to operate in FULL auto when set to auto. No tweeking, just give me the darn image as best as the gear can do it.

Originally, I bought the Pentax setup because the total price was excellent and the reviews everywhere told me that the image quality is great. And after owning the camera, I do agree. The caveat is that you have to capture the image with the subject in focus. (duh right?) And that, my friends is why the D300 will be my next purchase. Yes, it's a more expensive camera but c'mon....PENTAX: Give me your K-whatever-D that can match the OVERALL performance as a mid-highend Nikon and I will buy it. EVEN IF YOU CHARGE MORE. Why? Because you make good lenses and they are priced very well. Same thing goes for SDM...license Nikon's AS-F or whatever..give me something that's fast + all your other current goodies and I'm there. The micro motor speed on this DA* lens just well....sucks.

Final note/gripe. I have no idea what PENTAX does not make a KILLER FF or DX camera. Yes, K20d is great for the price but like the PENTAX west coast rep told me before, companies don't make money on bodies. The bread and butter is in the glass. So...since your glass is so well priced, why not make a beat-all body so you can sell more glass? Hopefully they are working on that for announcement in early '09. Otherwise, I can't see pentax shaking off the "pentax is for geezers and i'm cheap fanboys" image. Like I said earlier...I would gladly pay double the k20d for a near d700 performance (don't care about live view or 3" screen) and spend the rest of the difference (between a proper D700 setup) and buy a whole lot of pentax glass since it's so (relatively) inexpensive.

end gripe. sorry if I bored you...just a little frustrated with pentax's direction - no wonder they lost money in this biz.

disclaimer, whether you believe it or not: k20d is my first D-slr. have tried the D3, D300, D700. Never tried a Canon SLR in my entire life. I've had 2 minolta film slrs before this. Some p&s - barely worth mentioning. Been shooting total of 12 years.

solarisdreams · 08-24-2008, 12:08 PM

sorry, I should qualify my SDM-sucks statement.

I find the focus speed slow for this lens. Yes, I agree that SDM promises no speed improvements, only quieter. I get it. My point: Give me a lens that has both, or atleast a faster focus. Surely there are enough users SHOUTING for this requirement as even P&S cameras push this feature now. pentax: if you're going to make a "star" lens, make it a star. From what I've read (and seen) it's not that much diff in quality to the 16-45 (or is it 18-45?) Given that, it's only quieter + ED glass.

readers: please don't tell me that there are faster lenses that use the screwdriver. If I wanted to go backwards I wouldn't be buying a top-o-the-line pentax slr.

little laker · 08-24-2008, 12:21 PM

solarisdreams,

I don't have the time to read all your post at the moment, but I wanted to let you know that there is a good chance you got a defective 16 - 50 lens.
They've had quality control issues with it. Which is pretty much limited to that one lens.

Have fun with Nikon.

solarisdreams · 08-24-2008, 12:38 PM

I did the tripod-brick wall and newspaper tests. Like I mentioned earlier, the image is crisp if I put it on a pod. Taking pictures of inanimate objects are great...super-clear. However, with my shooting style, shooting objects that move around/in and out of focus easily, these are the problems that I run into.

If I were to switch to a PENTAX prime lens (non SDM i guess) would the autofocus be alot faster? If so, what's the best f1.4 (natural view) lens to get?

PentaxPoke · 08-24-2008, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by solarisdreams

I did the tripod-brick wall and newspaper tests. Like I mentioned earlier, the image is crisp if I put it on a pod. Taking pictures of inanimate objects are great...super-clear. However, with my shooting style, shooting objects that move around/in and out of focus easily, these are the problems that I run into.

If I were to switch to a PENTAX prime lens (non SDM i guess) would the autofocus be alot faster? If so, what's the best f1.4 (natural view) lens to get?

Yes, please don't judge your Pentax based on the DA*16-50. I have not had a problem with a single lens for Pentax except for that lens. I have returned two already due to defects. Others here have had similar problems ranging from AF issues, to decentering, doubling at the edges, etc. There is probably about a 50% chance you got a bad one. Heck if you use my statistically insignificant experience, there is a 100% chance you have a bad one.

Regarding a good prime lens, I shoot a lot of basketball games with the 50/1.4. No flash. Obviously LOTS of movement. Regarding SDM, I could take it or leave it. It is quiet. Big deal. It is not any faster though. The screw drive is not noisy in my opinion, just because you can hear it when your head is against the camera.

lesmore49 · 08-24-2008, 01:17 PM

I take pictures of flying Pelicans and they move as fast or faster than kids or dogs and it works out. I put the K10D on continuous focus and the meter on spot and aim for the eyes as the area of focus. I also change the ISO from 100 to 400...still sharp at this speed and it gives me extra speed for fast moving subjects.

I'm also using a big, long lens the 55-300 Pentax which Pop Photog rated very well in their latest issue and believe me trying to focus with a heavy camera, long lens on unpredictable - turn here - turn there- Pelicans is not easy.

Any camera that is as sophisticated as the Nikon D300 or the Pentax K10/20D is going to require set up.

I didn't want to do it, either, but my initial pictures weren't up to my expectations, until I sat down and followed the manual, section by section and adjusted the camera settings. I'm a lot happier now and I actually am glad that I did...the potential for the K10D or K20D is almost limitless. The same would apply to the D300...this is no point and shooter.

They're not designed primarily as point and shooters.

I also use the 16-45 Pentax lens. Love it, accurate, clear. I haven't heard of any problems with the 16-45, but as the other poster says, I have read about some difficulties with the 16-50 lens.

solarisdreams · 08-24-2008, 01:17 PM

thanks for the reply. the 50/1.4...how is the AF speed compared to the the 18-50 (at comparable range)?

solarisdreams · 08-24-2008, 01:20 PM

lesmore49:

re. d300 - that was actually what surprised me. I reset the settings and set everything on full 'dumb' auto and I was a little shocked. Anyways, no more plugging nikon.

Would you be so kind as to share one of your photos that involve some fast action/AF?

Thanks so much...

PentaxPoke · 08-24-2008, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by solarisdreams

thanks for the reply. the 50/1.4...how is the AF speed compared to the the 18-50 (at comparable range)?

I don't own the 18-50, and I can't say exactly how fast the focus is in numbers, but what I can say that it is fast enough that I am not at all thinking about focus speed. Here is just one BBall example in a dark gym, and this was with my k10d (which has a weaker AF motor than the k20d). AF-C, (which was correcting like mad due to the action.) These players are as close as you can get to an all-out sprint in basketball.

MJB DIGITAL · 08-24-2008, 01:45 PM

these first two

....in a [almost] pitch black venue with the crowd slamming me around

chasing the hor'duerve plate around for a shot to represent the caterer during a mag assignment:

these models dont exaclty mosey/saunter down the runway:

following a ball in motion for some sports practice:

Is that enough?

8)

Spex · 08-24-2008, 02:07 PM

Nikon really has very fast AF system, but knowing that D300 has 51 focus points, that's not some surprise. But I'm very satisfied with Pentax's AF system. It is a bit slower in low light than of other companies, but that goes mostly for night time.
In daytime, it's very fast. I've been taking pics of some birds fyling, and they came out pretty good focused.
Here are some examples:

Unsharp mask was applied to those, but only mild one (not sure but I think it was Amount 50, Pixels 2, Treshold 0), but anyway, those birds ARE in focus. All with kit 50-200, first with center AF point, 2nd and 3rd with multi (and cropped from original). Focus was in Single mode an all 3.

solarisdreams · 08-24-2008, 02:51 PM

Thanks guys.

SPEX and MJB DIGITAL: Are these also with the 50mm/1.4? The one with the brown dog looks really great, the martial arts ones not so much but I guess expected given the low light and...superfast lighting kicks?

Aside from the concert and outdoors pics, are any of these shot with flashes?

lesmore49 · 08-24-2008, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by solarisdreams

lesmore49:

re. d300 - that was actually what surprised me. I reset the settings and set everything on full 'dumb' auto and I was a little shocked. Anyways, no more plugging nikon.

Would you be so kind as to share one of your photos that involve some fast action/AF?

Thanks so much...

My Pelican pix are similar in quality to MJB's of his dog in action. I'm an older photographer and not very computer literate. I have tried to post some of my pictures on a few websites , but I haven't been too successful.

I will give it another shot, but given my computer abilities, I'm not optimistic.

*Ash* · 08-24-2008, 03:26 PM

solarisdreams,
Valid points - Pentax is not recognised for its AF wizardry. A little unfair to compare with the D300 or D700. Different class of camera. So where's Pentax's equivalents? Ask them...

People thesedays are not afraid to part with money to buy good cams, and so their expectations of what their camera should do are growing astronomically. Gen Y mentality.

A cam in auto mode should give you 'decent' sharp shots, if that's what you want - and I don't see the K10D/K20D not doing that in RAW (and in JPEG with the known provisos). But if you've not got time to 'fiddle' with settings, you may not be appreciating the full gamut of features and capabilities of the camera - that would also go for your D300.

A little thought into taking a picture, and you may find you're pleasantly surprised with the results, no matter what the camera.

MJB DIGITAL · 08-24-2008, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by solarisdreams

Thanks guys.

SPEX and MJB DIGITAL: Are these also with the 50mm/1.4? The one with the brown dog looks really great, the martial arts ones not so much but I guess expected given the low light and...superfast lighting kicks?

Aside from the concert and outdoors pics, are any of these shot with flashes?

The Golden Retriever is shot on K10D/50-135 DA*
I used back-button focus on these and I continue to shoot professionally with back-button focus.

The Taekwondo stuff was shot on ist*D/phoenix 19-35 3.5-5.6 (no SDM, cheap cheap lens) I shot the TKD stuff about a month after I got this cam as my first DSLR

The concert shot was done on a K10D/18-55(the old 18-55) flash was used

The hors'deurve shot was on the same K10D/18-55 combo

The Model was on a K10D with a cheap sigma 28-80 3.5-5.6

The 'sports' shot with the pink ball was on ist*D/sigma 28-80 combo

So all of the photos I have posted except for the Golden Retriever shots are without SDM, shot on cheap, old stuff.....

It just comes down to what you want to do. I encourage you to get the camera that will do the work for you. You will end up getting all of the snapshots you want.
When I am taking pictures, generally, I am working for the rent. It is a must to know all of your gear intimately, and know how it works and what its personality is. If you dont know your gear, you cant very well work it can you?

...the 'job' [of getting snapshots of kids] you are describing in your OP is not a job of yours, it is a job of the camera. If you have a day job, there is no reason to put yourself to work more on the weekends and evenings.

So your choices I guess would be to either learn how to use your camera or dump some money into nikon.

(how much do you want for the K20D?)