yes politics again

*séamuis* · 10-22-2008, 05:45 AM

Im not trying to start an obama vs mccain thread nor am I trying to start a republican vs democrat thread. I saw this video in another forum and after watching it I was so horrified by the remarks of these people, that I just wanted to get the opinions of some of you here. I know there are a lot of very smart people here and I also know politics is usually met with resistance on this forum but I really am worried that a majority of the people in this country are going to vote based on these types of things and it scares the hell out of me. is this really how we should be choosing our next president? I know this is only one group of people in one town in one state, but how many of these are there across the US? and how much influence do they have?

as a younger person I know and understand the differences between generations, and I respect those of previous generations who have served their country in any capacity. but to be completely honest, these kind of people make me loose faith in my country.

YouTube - Misconceptions of Obama fuel Republican campaign - 13 Oct 08

*daacon* · 10-22-2008, 06:25 AM

As a non American take these comments with a grain of salt. The comments in that video have much more do with upbringing and ignorance that with a generation gap. You can find people like this in almost every part of the civilized world, including where I live. It's just the media trying to make waves, cause this stuff sells.

I have followed the election somewhat - it does effect me personally in a small way as well as it is all over the news so how can I not ? Just the economic state alone of the biggest market in the world affects most of us in some way (recent events have affected my portfolio that as of today my retirement is scheduled for 3 years after I am dead

)

*Wombat* · 10-22-2008, 06:57 AM

I see this age as the end of a human raga. In Indian classical music a raga begins with a long, slow, rhythmless introduction in which the individual notes and scales are explored one by one in a leisurely, smooth, harmonious way - representing the long geological ages. As the raga progresses it gets faster and faster until it's going at such a pace that it seems as though it will all fly apart - as Yeats put it, "The centre cannot hold." This represents the development of human civilization. But just before total collapse, the pace of the raga begins to ease off and gradually it returns to the way it started and harmony is restored.

I think our civilization is at the stage where things seem to be flying apart, segments of society are polarising, harmony is lost and it seems as though chaos and destruction are imminent. However, if my analogy holds, being a sunny optimist and knowing ragas quite well, I believe it will right itself. The crisis is right now and I really see many signs that human beings are finally waking up to just how precarious our survival has become. There's just -only just - time to haul ourselves back from the brink and the US election is, I believe, the knife edge on which it is all balancing. Like my country, America has the best and the worst and for a long time the best have had the smaller voice. But all things change, the pendulum always swings and right now ultra-conservatism, though still loud, has passed its peak and the voice of reason is beginning to find itself again.

I very much hope our American cousins hear that voice in two weeks' time - their own voice that can be the best of the best. I'm a great believer in "what you think is what you get," so I choose to think positively. Seamuis, I'd encourage you to do the same (while we all hold our breath...)

*raz-0* · 10-22-2008, 12:46 PM

I think all you are seeing Is a news station making news for itself. Racism exists, and you won't get rid of it anytime soon. The fact we live in a such a racially varied nation just means it winds up nearer the surface. It's innate to the human animal to scrutinize those different form yourself with caution. Lots of people deal with life almost strictly at an motional level. For them you don't get rational caution, you get fear. The best you will do is dress it up some and pretend you have, and add some basic social sanctions to acting out on it without balancing the cost and benefit of doing so.

Point in case, our government isn't particularly conservative. What they have been doing is pandering to the religious when it comes time to roll out the rhetoric. Then you have folks liks wombat calling those with different religious views than himself "the worst" and says they have had the loudest voice.

For some reason, the phrase fundamental attribution error comes tom ind constantly with politics, and nobody seems to think it could possibly apply to them.

IMO Obama has some pretty downright awful plans. What good plans he does have are pretty much doomed by his awful plans. McCain lacks much in the way of good plans, but they are also likely to do less harm in general, and be less impossible to actually accomplish. McCain wants to rearrange the deck chairs on the titanic, Obama wants to build a nice parade float in the middle of a warehouse fire.

Cases in point to each. Obama wants to have the government invest in alternative energy. A generally good idea. However, he wants it fast, he wants it to stimulate the economy, and he wants to change the tax structure severely first. A green energy startup, unless you get a lot of BS like the .com bubble, isn't going to do much for the economy. Heck, we have a ton right now and they aren't doing much for the economy. With incentives to back it financially, we can likely get some actual serious killowatt hours being generated in not too many years. However, what we will be doing is largley replacing utilities ( a large, profitable, domestic portion of the economy) with new utilities. The net result, while positive for the environment, won't have too large an impact on foreign relations, energy independance, or do much to imporve the economy. Now bringing alternative energy sources to motor vehicles will help with foreign relations, energy independance, and has the possibility of stimulating the economy. However, it is a MUCH harder engineering feat. Both approaches need investment capital, and that is where Obama's plan falls down badly. He plan is to severely crank up taxation on the wealthy, and more importantly crank up taxation on capital gains and dividends. Historically, if you go back over the last 100 years plus, cranking up income taxes on the wealthy tends to drive them away from investing and into tax shelters while the capital gains tax increase tends to SEVERELY decrease venture capitalist investment. Which means the primary investment dollars are going to be tied up in tax sheltered investments, which usually means conservatively managed funds. They don't invest in risky startups. Under those conditions, Venture capitalists tend to just stop being venutre capitalists and invest money in other ways which are also usually tax sheltered.

[ETA] Likely, the obama alternative energy plan will boil down to reducing the sugar tariff, and formalziaing the sale of carbon credits ala CAFE. The sugar tariff is likely to happen with either party due to the falling price of oil. The carbon credits reward the democrat party elite financially, wut will likely be bad for the environment. For example, Al Gore's carbon credit company wanted to turn the dumping of nitrogen into the ocean as a positive credit you could sell because it increases algae which eats CO2. Unfortunately, that's largely considered pollution like farm runoff and improper sewage treatment. It results in algal blooms and dead zones in the ocean because when the algae blooms it kills of sea animals. Then after overpopualting the area, it dies off. pollution credit systems like CAFE are widely abused for profit, I doubt this would be any different. But you can impliment it in less than 4 years, and as long as you chant global warming loud enough, you can downplay the problems it causes and spin it as a success.

An example of a McCain bad plan is his approach to health care. He wants to basically take a tax credit currently given to employers who provide health care, and turn it into a refundable tax credit to individuals. However, you will be able to opt for giving the credit to your employer. The only choice you really have is to find individual insurance. Unfortunately, individual insurance isn't likely to be any cheaper, and shelters you less from denial due to pre-existing conditions. More than likely, given the free time of the average employee, they are just going to sign that tax credit right back over to their employer to keep their coverage and avoid a lot of work and having to learn about finding insurance. It's jsut shuffling the deck chairs, but it isn't likely to have much effect outside of the employee, employer, insurance company triangle. The biggest risk, is that some companies decide to get out of insuring their employees due to the unpredictability of who will and will not opt in, thus making it hard to give a meaningful number to the insurance companies to negotiate price.

Neither party has any real plan to decrease the cost of health care in the US. We are paying roughly twice as much for similar or worse results tahn other first world nations. With only about a 13% gap in coverage of the population, jsut droping healthcare costs form 200% to 150% of other places should free up enough capital to cover that 13%. But efficiency is in nobody's plan.

You have one guy selling an impossible bill of goods conatining many mutually exclusive items, and another that isn't promising much more than a re-org. People wonder why abortion and gun-control still remain defining issues. They are about the only thing either party gives an answer on that is meaningful and differentiates the two.

ftpaddict · 10-22-2008, 01:00 PM

BIG wall of text right above me.

I'm not an American, and I can only say that these are the people who voted for Bush.

(if you're one who has voted for Bush, you didn't just read this

)

*Clicker* · 10-22-2008, 03:26 PM

Politics is a revolving door of checks and balances for better or worst with no end in sight.

*reeftool* · 10-22-2008, 03:31 PM

This is more of the smoke screen BS that turns up in every election and from both sides. If you look around you will find extreme views with supporters of both. The republicans accuse democrats of being big spenders but look at the national debt and guess who spent more. Both parties tax the crap out of us. Just about every president turns out to be quite different in office than the way he tries to sell himself to get elected. It's American politics! If you read your history you will find its been like this for a long time. This stupidity keeps voters from looking at the real issues. While it may be easy to say **** it and stay home, its a sure thing the people you saw in that video are going to vote and do you want them choosing our next leader? That should scare the crap out of you! To be honest, I am still undecided. I am 58, usually vote for a conservative candidate but am also watching my 401k evaporate so i'll probably be working until i'm 90. My daughter is a junior in college and will she be able to go her senior year? The money I had saved is shrinking and will loans be available? My future issues are short term. You mentioned being younger so your future (and my kids and grandkids) may very well depend on this election so THINK! Vote wisely and please don't let idiots like those in that video influence your choice.

*séamuis* · 10-22-2008, 03:38 PM

seeing as I am nothing like the people in that video you don't have to worry about me. its other people I'm worried about both young and old.

navcom · 10-22-2008, 03:59 PM

I fashion myself as quite conservative. As a conservative, there really isn't a choice for me in this election. I agree with most of what's been said so far in this thread...it's mostly a smokescreen and neither candidate is the answer to our problems.

I cannot in good faith vote for Obama because his plan is a socialist plan. There are many economic systems. In the US, we have a mostly capitalist system and I support that, therefore I cannot vote for socialism. On the other hand, McCain is no conservative. His biggest claim is how he will "reach across the isle". Sorry John, but if I wanted the other side's plan, I would just vote for Obama. That is why we have a choice. I believe this is the main reason he is losing ground in the poles.

As for all the hatred for Bush out there, remember that those of us that are true conservatives never wanted him to begin with. He is NOT conservative by any stretch. Neither are many of the Republicans in Congress. The proof is in the debt. The current bunch of Republicans have a spending record that is unmatched!....hardly the mark of fiscal conservatives. It's for that reason that I didn't vote for Bush. The true conservatives always had their reservations about him and they were justified.

It is for these reasons that I've always said I'm a conservative first and a Republican second. I vote my principles, not by party lines. There are many of us out here. It's the main reason the Repubs are having such a hard time...they've completely abandoned their principles. Don't believe me? McCain's campaign soared after announcing Palin as his running mate, not because of Palin herself, but because she is more conservative than McCain. Then, when he started his talk about reaching across the isle, his numbers fell again.

deejjjaaaa · 10-22-2008, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by navcom

I fashion myself as quite conservative. As a conservative, there really isn't a choice for me in this election. I agree with most of what's been said so far in this thread...it's mostly a smokescreen and neither candidate is the answer to our problems.

I cannot in good faith vote for Obama because his plan is a socialist plan. There are many economic systems. In the US, we have a mostly capitalist system and I support that, therefore I cannot vote for socialism. On the other hand, McCain is no conservative. His biggest claim is how he will "reach across the isle". Sorry John, but if I wanted the other side's plan, I would just vote for Obama. That is why we have a choice. I believe this is the main reason he is losing ground in the poles.

As for all the hatred for Bush out there, remember that those of us that are true conservatives never wanted him to begin with. He is NOT conservative by any stretch. Neither are many of the Republicans in Congress. The proof is in the debt. The current bunch of Republicans have a spending record that is unmatched!....hardly the mark of fiscal conservatives. It's for that reason that I didn't vote for Bush. The true conservatives always had their reservations about him and they were justified.

It is for these reasons that I've always said I'm a conservative first and a Republican second. I vote my principles, not by party lines. There are many of us out here. It's the main reason the Repubs are having such a hard time...they've completely abandoned their principles. Don't believe me? McCain's campaign soared after announcing Palin as his running mate, not because of Palin herself, but because she is more conservative than McCain. Then, when he started his talk about reaching across the isle, his numbers fell again.

so you are a paleocon... dinosaur, so to say.

*Wombat* · 10-22-2008, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by raz-0

Point in case, our government isn't particularly conservative. What they have been doing is pandering to the religious when it comes time to roll out the rhetoric. Then you have folks liks wombat calling those with different religious views than himself "the worst" and says they have had the loudest voice.

Talk about misinterpretation! I never said anything about religion, Raz! As it happens, I've been a Buddhist for most of my 64 years and hope I've learned enough from those teachings not to have any predjudices of the type you accuse me of. In my response to Seamuis is was simply making the point that our respective nations contain populations with highly polarized views, some of them being extreme, unloving, bigotted etc. - views that most of us on a human level would regard as the "worst" of which we are capable. That's all. Please read carefully before you jump on people.

navcom · 10-22-2008, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa

so you are a paleocon... dinosaur, so to say.

I'm a federalist, so in that sense, you could call me a paleoconservative. If that is being a dinosaur, so be it. Socialism has it's roots back in 1789 so it's roughly the same age as American federalism, so I'm not quite sure of your point.

deejjjaaaa · 10-22-2008, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by navcom

Socialism has it's roots back in 1789

mr More wrote his "Utopia" back in 15xx... and he was not the first w/ his ideas

navcom · 10-22-2008, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by deejjjaaaa

mr More wrote his "Utopia" back in 15xx... and he was not the first w/ his ideas

Ok...and the first settlers to America had the beginnings of federalist principles in 16xx. Does that mean we are all dinosaurs?? Not sure how that relates to the thread. Were you trying to jab or insult me for some reason by calling me a dinosaur? Did I say something wrong?

navcom · 10-22-2008, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Wombat

I very much hope our American cousins hear that voice in two weeks' time - their own voice that can be the best of the best. I'm a great believer in "what you think is what you get," so I choose to think positively. Seamuis, I'd encourage you to do the same (while we all hold our breath...)

I agree with much that you say here wombat. I just don't think that conservatism is to blame. "Ultra-conservatism" is just as dangerous as "ultra-liberalism"...but both are nowhere near the norm for American society.

As a conservative, I do not have any friends or aquaintences who holds the views of these idiots in the video. Quite the contrary. As a conservative, I take great offense to being compared to these types of people as racism is not confined to a left or right-wing ideology. I've seen just as bad come from the left. I would love to see an African American become president...it's long overdue. I would just like him/her to hold conservative principles. TRUE conservative values cherish personal freedom above all else. Personal freedom is what allows each of us to achieve greatness. It's what has made America strong. And it applies to EVERY American....black, white, Christian, Jewish, Buhdist, man, woman, etc.

America is not perfect....no country is. But personal freedom is what allows us to continue to improve our lives and make things better.

Do people like those in this video exist? Of course, but they are idiots and they are the definate minority, and I've traveled all over this great land. If you dig hard enough, you find them on both the left and the right. I also do not believe everything the media tells me. They each have their own agenda, such as the media "outlet" from this video. Don't believe everything the national media says about "conservatives". Remember...Bush is NOT a true conservative and I would kick him and many of his cronies out of the Republican party if I could. He's done more to damage conservatives than anyone in the Democratic party ever has.

If Obama's ideas and policies (at least what he is putting forward) represent a new way of thinking, we are all gravely mistaken. They are the same policies and ideas that have been put forward by the Democratic party for 60 years. There is nothing new. It's not necessarily a slam against Obama...it's just fact. You can look at the slogans and the policies from elections past. The same goes for McCain. We are not getting anything new or improved with either of these gentlemen except politics. It's sad.