The Last Camera Store - Page 2

flyer · 12-29-2008, 05:14 PM

I stand behind Wheatfield 100%. I keep hearing people complaints about not being able to try a particular camera before ordering it on the net. B & M stores aren't showrooms for the internet. They have to make some profit to stay in business.

*Blue* · 12-29-2008, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by flyer

I stand behind Wheatfield 100%. I keep hearing people complaints about not being able to try a particular camera before ordering it on the net. B & M stores aren't showrooms for the internet. They have to make some profit to stay in business.

I understand where Wheatfield is coming from. However, I don't agree with you here. If I were still living in Fayetteville, AR, I would have bought the k200d and k20d, and the lenses I bought new from one of the local stores that stock Pentax and have competitive prices. As a matter of fact, one of the local stores (actually a small chain of 6 stores) in NW Arkansas sells via the internet. BH and Adorama are brick and mortar stores that stepped up and used the internet to strengthen their business instead of going the way of the dinosaurs.

I call you on saying that people are complaining about not being able to use local shops as a show room for the net. That is BS for the most part. There may be one or 2 posts out of hundreds that come across that way but that is it. I'm not going to pay msrp to BH nor a local B & M. I won't do it for a camera or anything else. I do use the local store to buy my film and do the in house processing that they do. However, if it is something they have to ship out like color 120/220, I send it to Dewaynes.

Lets go back to the local B & M here in Tallahassee. They wanted to charge me MSRP to order the K200D and I had to pay for it up front and pay a "restocking" fee if I didn't like it. Like I said before, loyalty is a 2 way street.

baltochef920 · 12-29-2008, 06:16 PM

The following is a broad generalization that may not apply to you, or your family..Please do not get all huffy and indignant if you do not fit what I have written>>

In the year 2009 we live in a world of convenience..No one wishes to expend any more mental or physical energy to accomplish any particular task than is absolutely necessary..To do so would be to somehow shortchange ourselves, and to diminish our lives in some way that would effectively cripple us beyond repair..

Everyone that purchases anything from groceries all the way to the most expensive luxury item wants a deal..No one wants to pay full retail, or MSRP, regardless of what product we might be discussing..We want our goods cheap, and we do not much care what has to happen in order for this to become a reality..

When did paying full retail price for a product become a dirty word??..Something to be ashamed of, and to be avoided at all costs??..Something that would lead one's friends and neighbors to sneer at you, and to regard you with pity for being so naive and gullible??..When did the deciding factor in any business transaction, regardless of how large or how small, become the monetary value of that particular transaction??..

When did the service rendered by a business become secondary to the monetary cost of the transaction??..When did walking into a retail establishment and requiring that ONLY our needs as a customer be taken into consideration??..When did the needs and concerns of the business owner start to NOT become a factor in any business transaction negotiated between two human beings??..

When did the general public decide that businesses and their employees had NO rights to be treated humanely??..That the customer was ALWAYS right??..That the customer had the absolute RIGHT to treat a business and its employees in any fashion that they chose to do so??..That a customer could treat an employee in as rude a manner as they wished??..That employees of businesses had to stand for being abused verbally in a fashion that one would not wish on any but one's worst enemies??..And, that employees were EXPECTED to stand at attention like a robot with a smile plastered on their face while being so abused??..

When did going into a place of business to purchase a product or service become such a trial??..When did we decide that EVERY freaking waking moment of our lives MUST be filled with some form of profitable activity??..When did we decide that if there were 16 waking hours in our day, that we would have to schedule at least 18 hours of activity in our day??..When did we decide that if an activity REQUIRED ten minutes in order to be effectively transacted, that we would ONLY allot eight minutes of our day for that activity??..When did we decide that NOT giving our full attention to any activity was the preferred way to live??..

When did we decide that being electronically connected 24/7/365 was MORE important than civility??..Before cell phones and computers became readily available to the masses how did we EVER survive??..Why does any business without a website automatically assume less importance in our eyes??..

Why do we compare individual brick and mortar stores to giant retail establishments such as Wal-Mart, Costco, Ritz Camera, Adorama, B&H Photo Video, etc??..Why do we EXPECT such small retail stores to have competitive pricing against such large corporations when we KNOW that they cannot possibly obtain the same deals from the manufacturers of the equipment that they sell??..When we KNOW that their markup HAS to be greater in order NOT to sell at a loss..When did we come to EXPECT companies to sell us products at a LOSS in order to compete in business..Does anyone THINK that selling at a loss is GOOD business??..Do we not realize that if businesses sell some of their products at a loss, than they MUST by extension sell some of their other products at artificially high prices in order to stay in businesses??..Do we not realize that economies will eventually collapse if businesses do not price all of their products fairly??..

Consumers like Blue are at the heart of the problem..In this thread he has stated several times that under NO conditions is he going to pay full retail price, or MSRP, for any product..If a business NEVER has the opportunity to sell its high ticket items at full retail than it puts itself into potential financial jeopardy..This form of behavior is rampant in our society..

Do we really want to live in a world where a few thousand huge corporations dictate the price of everything??..As the brick and mortar stores slowly succumb to the retail giants, those retail giants will eventually have the wherewithal to DICTATE the prices of what they sell their goods for..

The local brick and mortar store cannot always, and should not have to sell their products for the same prices as the huge retail giants..If we allow them to fail by not patronizing their establishments, and by always choosing price over service; then we will one day come to regret it..

Bruce

*Blue* · 12-29-2008, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by baltochef920

. . .

Consumers like Blue are at the heart of the problem..In this thread he has stated several times that under NO conditions is he going to pay full retail price, or MSRP, for any product..If a business NEVER has the opportunity to sell its high ticket items at full retail than it puts itself into potential financial jeopardy..This form of behavior is rampant in our society..
. . .

Bruce, You took what I stated out of context and totally overlooked where I supported Colliers when I was in Fayetteville, and Thompson's in Knoxville. The MSRP is an inflated figure whether it is a Jeep or a Pentax camera.

I'm sure you payed MSRP for the vehicle you drive or the camera you use. I bet you drive a Kia that you payed 10% above msrp on.

Edit: I have never asked a local store to sell something at a loss. If they "have" to sell at or above msrp, they are already in trouble.

*Blue* · 12-29-2008, 06:45 PM

Here is another thought. How many people buy from other b & m stores when there isn't one in their area? I do it frequently. Many are on line.

*tranq78* · 12-29-2008, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Blue

I'm sure you payed MSRP for the vehicle you drive or the camera you use. I bet you drive a Kia that you payed 10% above msrp on.

Hey you must be referring to me! I've been car shopping.

A few weeks ago a car dealer said he would only sell to me for full MSRP, not a penny less. Plus he wanted a $500 "fee" to issue a bill of sale. Plus I had to wait over 4 months for delivery since he didn't have the car w/options I wanted. Plus I had better buy from him right now before the good deal is gone.

I am not joking.

--Tranq78 (who now feels dirty just thinking about that experience)

*graphicgr8s* · 12-29-2008, 08:21 PM

Well my closest b & m shop is open from 8:30 - 5. Closed weekends. Makes it real hard to do business with. It's website is non existant. Still can't figure out how it stays open. I rarely buy over the net. I like being able to go an pick someone's brain for knowledge. And if it's a fair price I buy. I may be able to get it cheaper on line or even in another store but if the people are knowledgable, etc than I am willing to pay for it. There are 2 stores I buy my tropical fish supplies and 1 place I buy my model railroad stuff. I may pay a bit more but the fellowship, comraderie, knowledge, etc. more than makes up for the feww dollars more. You need more than one source for everything. Not everything can be carried in one store and they know that. But I still prefer local whenever possible.
JMO

*Mallee Boy* · 12-29-2008, 08:21 PM

well put Bruce.

If 'we' follow some of the retail thinking then we will conceivably end up with one or two giant stores, that for the first week or two will be the cheapest around. 'Competition' will come from another store that is owned by the big guy, thus removing any real competition.....dont scoff....its happening here now, as it no doubt is over there.

Hopefully one of the things to emerge out of the current finacial crisis will be a return to smaller entities in retail as a few of the monoliths fall over on oh so skinny margins, which at the end of the day do not do anyone any good. Skinny margins also mean the manufacturer is being screwed senseless, which in turn means the worker feels the pain and so on it goes.

I hope some balance can be achieved (restored), but everything is so skewed and murky at the moment with bail outs that it is hard to see who is a genuine corporate contributor to society worthy of support and who is simply cashing in on the governments fears.

I am as guilty as anyone, I shop around for the best price, but my last two major purchases (K200d & Pentax 17-70...3 months apart) have been from brick & mortar shops...and I am glad to say....at very competitive prices. Not the cheapest, but close enough to make the decision easy. This was very different from when I bought my K20 9 months ago, the stores had their retail and were not interested in talking price....so I bought on-line at a saving of several hundred dollars, something I didn't actually like doing, but the price was too good to ignore.

As I say, here's hoping for some much needed balance.

Happy New Year.

Grant
PS: George: hang in there mate, there's a dealer out there (somewhere) who actually wants your business....finding him/her is just taking a bit more time.

*tranq78* · 12-29-2008, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mallee Boy

PS: George: hang in there mate, there's a dealer out there (somewhere) who actually wants your business....finding him/her is just taking a bit more time.

Hee hee. I wasn't injured in the car accident so I should just be happy for that. You can always replace the equipment. Well, OK, FA/F/A* lenses excepted; you can't replace those.

I know some honest and honorable people in the car industry, so after we've made our decision I'll contact one of them.

Happy new year Grant!

12-29-2008, 08:56 PM

Of the three DSLR bodies I have purchased, two of them have come from the Local Camera Shop.

I haven't been in to see them in a while, and if what I hear is true about Pentax selling the small shops, they may not even stock Pentax gear any longer. Guess I need to run by there tomorrow and see.

*Blue* · 12-29-2008, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by baltochef920

. . .
In the year 2009 we live in a world of convenience..No one wishes to expend any more mental or physical energy to accomplish any particular task than is absolutely necessary..To do so would be to somehow shortchange ourselves, and to diminish our lives in some way that would effectively cripple us beyond repair..

This really transcends photography and we can only do what we can do.

Originally Posted by baltochef920

Everyone that purchases anything from groceries all the way to the most expensive luxury item wants a deal..No one wants to pay full retail, or MSRP, regardless of what product we might be discussing..We want our goods cheap, and we do not much care what has to happen in order for this to become a reality..

MSRP are generally inflated numbers and anyone that pays MSRP either has more money than they need to worry about it or either naive or foolish. If its an emergency and there's no option that's an exception. Buying a k200d or k20d isn't an emregency.

Originally Posted by baltochef920

When did paying full retail price for a product become a dirty word??..Something to be ashamed of, and to be avoided at all costs??..Something that would lead one's friends and neighbors to sneer at you, and to regard you with pity for being so naive and gullible??..When did the deciding factor in any business transaction, regardless of how large or how small, become the monetary value of that particular transaction??..

Again the msrp is an inflated number most famously abused by the auto and electronics industries. As far as the neighbors go, I don't discuss my business with them. Its my business and I mind my own. I know them. We look out after each others dogs.

Originally Posted by baltochef920

When did the service rendered by a business become secondary to the monetary cost of the transaction??..When did walking into a retail establishment and requiring that ONLY our needs as a customer be taken into consideration??..When did the needs and concerns of the business owner start to NOT become a factor in any business transaction negotiated between two human beings??..

We haven't actually dissed on the service nor the people. I'm courteous whether I'm dealing with a local business or one in Oregon. Also, no one dismissed the needs and concerns of the business. I realize they need to pay there bills and employees. So do I.

Originally Posted by baltochef920

When did the general public decide that businesses and their employees had NO rights to be treated humanely??..That the customer was ALWAYS right??..That the customer had the absolute RIGHT to treat a business and its employees in any fashion that they chose to do so??..That a customer could treat an employee in as rude a manner as they wished??..That employees of businesses had to stand for being abused verbally in a fashion that one would not wish on any but one's worst enemies??..And, that employees were EXPECTED to stand at attention like a robot with a smile plastered on their face while being so abused??..

Again, no one said the public should treat employees rudely or badly. This is the south. I believe in common courtesy. I'm not sure where you are coming from with this.

Originally Posted by baltochef920

When did going into a place of business to purchase a product or service become such a trial??..When did we decide that EVERY freaking waking moment of our live MUST be filled with some form of profitable activity??..When did we decide that if there were 16 waking hours in our day, that we would have to schedule at least 18 hours of activity in our day??..When did we decide that if an activity REQUIRED ten minutes in order to be effectively transacted, that we would ONLY allot eight minutes of our day for that activity??..When did we decide that NOT giving our full attention to any activity was the preferred way to live??..

No one said it was a trial. If we make an amicable deal, cool, if not cool. Again it goes back to common courtesy

Originally Posted by baltochef920

When did we decide that being electronically connected 24/7/365 was MORE important than civility??..Before cell phones and computers became readily available to the masses how did we EVER survive??..Why does any business without a website automatically assume less importance in our eyes??..

I guess I asked Thompson's a for advise and then Colliers. I also talked to my grandfather and colleagues for photographic advice. I even read a few books . . . and still do.

Originally Posted by baltochef920

Why do we compare individual brick and mortar stores to giant retail establishments such as Wal-Mart, Costco, Ritz Camera, Adorama, B&H Photo Video, etc??..Why do we EXPECT such small retail stores to have competitive pricing against such large corporations when we KNOW that they cannot possibly obtain the same deals from the manufacturers of the equipment that they sell??..When we KNOW that their markup HAS to be greater in order NOT to sell at a loss..When did we come to EXPECT companies to sell us products at a LOSS in order to compete in business..Does anyone THINK that selling at a loss is GOOD business??..Do we not realize that if businesses sell some of their products at a loss, than they MUST by extension sell some of their other products at artificially high prices in order to stay in businesses??..Do we not realize that economies will eventually collapse if businesses do not price all of their products fairly??..

Why do you lump BH and Adorama in the same category as Wal-Fart and Cost-CO? Both have walk in b & m stores in NY and were in business long before the net. The adapted and overcame. There are others that are doing business using the net such as BlueMoon in Oregon. No one said anything about sailing items at a loss. No one has ever been really competitive by going strictly msrp before or after the net. But I would actually like to see an item before I by if I'm walking into the store to buy it, otherwise, BH and Adorama both have good return policies.

Originally Posted by baltochef920

Consumers like Blue are at the heart of the problem..In this thread he has stated several times that under NO conditions is he going to pay full retail price, or MSRP, for any product..If a business NEVER has the opportunity to sell its high ticket items at full retail than it puts itself into potential financial jeopardy..This form of behavior is rampant in our society..

I'm really not sure where I gave you the idea that I'm a Wal-mart shopper, quite the contrary. My family and I consider going into there like going into the belly of the beast. I do have an opinion like just like you do however. I think that for people to help their local businesses, the businesses need to help us help them. We shop at farmers markets as much as possible and support local and American agriculture as much as possible. Unless its something that makes sense like Chianti wine from Italy or Reisling from Germany or Shiraz from Australia. We drive American made vehicles.

Originally Posted by baltochef920

Do we really want to live in a world where a few thousand huge corporations dictate the price of everything??..As the brick and mortar stores slowly succumb to the retail giants, those retail giants will eventually have the wherewithal to DICTATE the prices of what they sell their goods for..

While Adorama and BH are corporations, they are hardly in the same category as WalMart and CostCo. I have friends that by definition are corporations.

Originally Posted by baltochef920

The local brick and mortar store cannot always, and should not have to sell their products for the same prices as the huge retail giants..If we allow them to fail by not patronizing their establishments, and by always choosing price over service; then we will one day come to regret it..

Bruce

Here again no one said sell at a loss. But come on, $1100 for a K200D kit back in June when I was looking for a Pentax dSLR, and they had to order it with me paying up front. There was something like a 15% restocking fee if I didn't want it.

*Blue* · 12-29-2008, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by graphicgr8s

Well my closest b & m shop is open from 8:30 - 5. Closed weekends. Makes it real hard to do business with. It's website is non existant. Still can't figure out how it stays open. I rarely buy over the net. I like being able to go an pick someone's brain for knowledge. And if it's a fair price I buy. I may be able to get it cheaper on line or even in another store but if the people are knowledgable, etc than I am willing to pay for it. There are 2 stores I buy my tropical fish supplies and 1 place I buy my model railroad stuff. I may pay a bit more but the fellowship, comraderie, knowledge, etc. more than makes up for the feww dollars more. You need more than one source for everything. Not everything can be carried in one store and they know that. But I still prefer local whenever possible.
JMO

We have a local hobby shop that deals mainly in model planes but they do stock some railroad stuff including .027 and I do business with them for time to time. What gauge railroad stuff are you into? They are tied into the local model plane clubs and railroad clubs. Their prices are competitive. Staying in tune with the various groups and clubs helps. Even though they specialize in the planes and other rc stuff, they have always been willing to order Lionel stuff and are an authorized Lionel dealer which is where I get my annual Lionel catalogs.

12-29-2008, 10:23 PM

I love threads like this.

You find out who amongst us are the first class jerks.

baltochef920 · 12-29-2008, 11:49 PM

Blue

I am only going to address a couple of the points in your rebuttal to my post..

Other than singling you out for your views on MSRP my entire post was to illustrate the general attitudes of our society as a whole, not the specific views and purchasing practices of individual members of this forum..Indeed, I even took the trouble to put a disclaimer at the top of the post telling people not to get their knickers into too much of a wad over what I wrote..

Why are the MSRP values in every industry that publishes them inflated??..Because, virtually every single customer that walks into those businesses expects, nay most people are practically demanding a great deal..And, they are not shy about letting the salespeople in these businesses know right up front that a good deal is a must if the business expects to get their trade..

MSRP values are inflated to take into account the war that has been raging for the past 50 years between consumers and retailers..All businesses have to show a profit if they expect to remain viable..If the MSRP values were not inflated then these businesses would be selling their products at near cost, or at a loss..I am positive that the MSRP values could be adjusted downwards to more realistic levels if the average customer stopped walking into every business selling high ticket items EXPECTING a killer deal..

As far as the issues in my first paragraph are concerned, convenience is at the very heart of many peoples issues with brick and mortar stores..The average consumer today not only is demanding an incredible deal, they do not want to be inconvenienced in ANY way while procuring that deal..

The average brick and mortar store simply does not have the financial wherewithal to stock the amount of merchandise that B&H or Adorama can in their stores..Putting the high ticket items aside for a moment, there is no way, for example, that my local store here in Baltimore can possibly keep in stock more than a hundred, or so, filters..B&H, on the other hand, has tens of thousands of filters in their warehouse..As does Adorama..The same thing applies to virtually every other possible kind of photographic gear..As a general rule, B&H will carry a better selection, and have in stock those selections in far greater numbers than my local store will..

When the customer walks into the average brick and mortar camera store they should not expect these stores to have in stock the same amount of goods that B&H does..It is simply an unrealistic expectation..Yet in the short time that I have been reacquainted with photography I have read hundreds of times where a person has refused to wait for their local store to order in for them what they want..Or was pissed because the local store wanted to charge them a restocking fee for returning or simply not purchasing an item that was special ordered for them..

B&H and Adorama can afford to have such generous return policies because of their world-wide customer base..They know that they can almost always sell a returned product to another customer for close to new money due to the overwhelmingly huge volume of business that they do..

Comparing B&H, Adorama, and other huge US camera stores that have a brick and mortar, as well as internet presence, is like comparing a mole to a blue whale..Both are mammals, but they differ greatly..You could fit a large number of local brick and mortar camera stores into the combined retail and warehouse square footage that B&H alone occupies..Apples and oranges..Not the same at all..

Back to the convenience angle..The average photographer wants a deal, expects the local store to have a comparable selection to B&H, and wants the local store to meet B&H's prices..When they cannot get these things RIGHT AWAY, they bitch and moan about the local store to any that will listen; and turn to the internet for the purchase..

95% of ALL photographers are not earning their living from photography..We have other jobs for our income..Photography is a hobby, an avocation..Why are so many photographers absolutely, positively UNWILLING to wait for the local store to order in for them what they want??..Because we want instant gratification, that's why..We cram so damn much into our everyday lives that the mere thought of waiting two weeks for a special order photographic item to show up is anathema to us..In addition, we DO NOT want to have to pay any financial penalty for such customer service when we choose not to purchase what was special ordered specifically for us..We want our cake, we want to eat it too, we want someone to hand feed it to us, and we want that person to wipe our mouths for us with a napkin when we are are finished eating..

I am sure that there are some brick and mortar camera stores that deserve to go out of business..Not all of them can be great at what they do..OTOH, most brick and mortar stores are failing because photographers are more concerned with rock bottom price than they are with service..They are more than willing to turn to the Big Box chain retail stores and the internet to get the best prices..

*falconeye* · 12-30-2008, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by reeftool

The Last Camera Store

Over they years, I developed a clear vision of what is happenning here and I am eager to share it with you:

(1) Retail stores sell a mixture of consultancy and delivery. People use the internet to get cheapest delivery and only enter retail stores to get free consultancy which includes a free "showroom service".

(2) Therefore, all retail stores die (except for the very last ones which transform into stage #3, cf. below).

(3) Once dead, a new type of retail store will arrive: free delivery (read same price as the internet) but paid consultancy which includes an entrance fee for the "showroom service". The consultancy is paid per visit or an annual membership fee. It isn't as obvious as everybody thinks that entrance into a retail store is free. I remember to have seen shop signs (when I was a kid) reading: "entrance is free".
A variant of #3 are free "showroom only" stores run by manufacturers. They will appear in the early phase of this stage and disappear at a later phase.

Of course, stage #3 can only happen after #2 has happened. Therefore, there are reasons to accelerate #2 to sooner arrive at stage #3.

A few exceptions exist already now (where one company controls both, retail and the internet sales channels) which allow to have a glimpse at how stage #3 will look like. One example are the florishing Apple stores.