The Last Camera Store - Page 3

*Wheatfield* · 12-30-2008, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by baltochef920

Blue

I am only going to address a couple of the points in your rebuttal to my post..

<snipped for brevity, but an excellent post>

I think I want to have your babies.

*Blue* · 12-30-2008, 08:42 AM

Falconeye, You have a pretty good model here. There are a couple of weaknesses however.

Originally Posted by falconeye

Over they years, I developed a clear vision of what is happenning here and I am eager to share it with you:

(1) Retail stores sell a mixture of consultancy and delivery. People use the internet to get cheapest delivery and only enter retail stores to get free consultancy which includes a free "showroom service".

Well, the one brick and mortar store (excluding the Mall Ritz) isn't a showroom in regards to Pentax because they don't have any Pentax. They can't sell what they don't carry. However, the same thing would happen if it were Olympus, etc. It should not be a problem for a B&M to have a K20D, K200D, and K-M on hand with a few accessories. Perhaps a lot of that responsibility goes to Pentax. And Pentax's delivery system is probably the key to actual product availability on a local level.

Originally Posted by falconeye

(2) Therefore, all retail stores die (except for the very last ones which transform into stage #3, cf. below).

I don't think this will completely happen. BH, Adorama, Bedford Camera, BlueMoon, KEH and Chains like Calumet still do business they way the did 25-30 years ago. KEH uses the Internet rather than mail order. They would have to go under to get completely to 3 below

Originally Posted by falconeye

(3) Once dead, a new type of retail store will arrive: free delivery (read same price as the internet) but paid consultancy which includes an entrance fee for the "showroom service". The consultancy is paid per visit or an annual membership fee. It isn't as obvious as everybody thinks that entrance into a retail store is free. I remember to have seen shop signs (when I was a kid) reading: "entrance is free".
A variant of #3 are free "showroom only" stores run by manufacturers. They will appear in the early phase of this stage and disappear at a later phase.

Of course, stage #3 can only happen after #2 has happened. Therefore, there are reasons to accelerate #2 to sooner arrive at stage #3.

Model 3 has never worked that well in the U.S. and those kinds of "show rooms" come and go and usually go a lot faster than the come. Sears and RoeBuck were one of the Pioneers of this type of system and they are struggling. Another example is ServiceMerchandise

Originally Posted by falconeye

A few exceptions exist already now (where one company controls both, retail and the internet sales channels) which allow to have a glimpse at how stage #3 will look like. One example are the florishing Apple stores.

Face it, if it weren't for the IPod, Apple would be in serious trouble. Pentax has never attempted this type of model and don't think they could survive relying on this type of model

*Wheatfield* · 12-30-2008, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Blue

Falconeye, You have a pretty good model here. There are a couple of weaknesses however.

Well, the one brick and mortar store (excluding the Mall Ritz) isn't a showroom in regards to Pentax because they don't have any Pentax. They can't sell what they don't carry. However, the same thing would happen if it were Olympus, etc. It should not be a problem for a B&M to have a K20D, K200D, and K-M on hand with a few accessories. Perhaps a lot of that responsibility goes to Pentax. And Pentax's delivery system is probably the key to actual product availability on a local level.

You have to remember that camera stores have been deteriorating for in excess of a decade. When I worked in them 20 or so years ago, they were showrooms for every brand that they carried, but times have changed. The internet has eroded them, big box retailers (I include the B&H style stores here, as they are just a specialized big box store) have eroded them, and mail order has eroded them.
When you complain about how things are today, you need to keep things in context regarding how they got to where they are.

*reeftool* · 12-30-2008, 10:43 AM

I suppose i'm just a little old fashioned in that I prefer to shop locally and also hold a product in my hands to see what i'm getting. I realize the specialty store is dying, whether its a camera store, music store, appliance store, etc. The trend is internet and mail order or large chain retailers and even the large retailers are hurting. A very large chunk of the population prefers to shop online and business is going to adjust to that. No retail store in a prime location, just a warehouse, a server, a multi line phone system and a few stock pickers and somebody to answer the phones. Some businesses don't even have the warehouse, just have the order drop shipped.

Personally, I consider it somewhat dishonest to pick the brains of the sales people in a store and then go buy the product online but I know that kind of thing is done. A big city like NY or Boston can support retail stores simply because of the large volume of people there. If only 1 out of a hundred camera buyers is the guy who wants to go to a camera store, a business like B&H will do nicely in a city of millions but in smaller towns and citys its tough. Years ago, the dept stores sold Brownies and Instamatics and if you wanted an SLR you had to go to a camera store. I guess my biggest gripe is now that the big stores sell the cameras, they don't sell all the other stuff too like tripods, filters, flashes and so on. Camera and kit lens, nothing more. Its no surprise that this Christmas season, the retailers got hit hard and Amazon had their best year ever. As people have had to get the add on accessories for any of the products they have bought in the big box stores by ordering it after the purchase, I think this year they just stayed home and ordered everything online.

**Damn Brit** · 12-30-2008, 11:12 AM

What no one has mentioned so far is the fact that people are changing. I think the majority on this forum are in our middle years and can still remember what service was and so we are the ones that are most affected by it. I'm sure there are people on this forum who have never been in a camera store.
B&M stores have been on the back foot for years, they are forced to try and make money any way and that's when service suffers, they are trying to sell you whatever they make most profit on rather than what you want.
Even if a store wants to provide a service, they are often hampered by the fact that it's nigh on impossible to find staff that give a s#$t.

*monochrome* · 12-30-2008, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Blue

We have a local hobby shop that deals mainly in model planes but they do stock some railroad stuff including .027 and I do business with them for time to time. What gauge railroad stuff are you into? They are tied into the local model plane clubs and railroad clubs. Their prices are competitive. Staying in tune with the various groups and clubs helps. Even though they specialize in the planes and other rc stuff, they have always been willing to order Lionel stuff and are an authorized Lionel dealer which is where I get my annual Lionel catalogs.

Interesting you should compare to model railroading - I do that, too, and I buy exclusively from my local B&M shop.

But then when I go in the shop the owner knows me and my genre, knows my scale, knows where I am in the process toward completion, etc. When I ask a question about how to accomplish a representation of reality he has a prduct recommendation AND A CONSTRUCTION SUGGESTION.

He stocks EVERYTHING (models and operating elements, construction raw materials, paint, tools, books, just to start) to do with that hobby or can special order something and have it in a week or two (interesting that modelers don't worry about waiting - we know it is part of the deal).

His prices are 35% higher than the catalog / online companies, but that is OK.

There are literally a MILLION items available in the big catalog, not counting online specialty sources - his knowledge of the product area has value because I can NEVER equal it.

There isn't a single, one-time, major purchase such a camera body in the hobby - there are multiple, small purchases.

There isn't an Apple or Adobe whose major product is required for the hobby and distributed away from the MR shop.

The message here is (unless you can convince me there are a million differentiated photography items in the B&H catalog), now that film is gone there just isn't that much product differentiation and ongoing technical assistance a camera store owner can exploit, that can be tied to a series of regular purchases, to serve a customer and earn the higher cost.

My argument has been for years that the death of film is the death of the camera industry as we know it.

*Wheatfield* · 12-30-2008, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by monochrome

The message here is (unless you can convince me there are a million differentiated photography items in the B&H catalog), now that film is gone there just isn't that much product differentiation and ongoing technical assistance a camera store owner can exploit, that can be tied to a series of regular purchases, to serve a customer and earn the higher cost.

My argument has been for years that the death of film is the death of the camera industry as we know it.

My argument in favour of B&M stores is the 16-50/2.8.....
Seriously, with the number of complaints that modern lenses seem to be generating, and this is not limited to our brand, I'd be very hesitant to buy a new lens from an online retailer.
There is just too much potential hassle involved.
Buy a lens, get it delivered, find it to be defective, pack it back up and return it and repeat the process.
How many times will you pay postage, and how much time will you waste at the post office before the "savings" have dissolved in frustration and postage?
I was at my local store yesterday (at least I still have a decent one), and noted 4 16-50s on the shelf.
Odds are, were I in the market for one, I should be able to get a good sample off the shelf in one trip to the store.
As an aside, I asked about the 60-250.
I was told that the rep had been in a couple of weeks ago and knew nothing about it.
They mentioned something about when it was on the website, he'd know about it.
I believe it's been on PCI's website for more than two weeks now.......

*geauxpez* · 12-30-2008, 12:36 PM

Here's a slightly different angle: I recently purchased a tripod online when I could have pourchased it at a mom & pop B&M store. The price difference wasn't THAT great, but the level of service was. At the B&M store I was one of two customers in the store. One was being helped at the infamous glass counter that few employees dare cross while others were doing "their thing" elsewhere. I fumbled with tripods, looked for prices, specs, etc, though I had used the online retailers' sites to do most of my research (for free). I could not get anyone to answer a question ot help me. They had stacks of tripods in boxes that you were forbidden to touch without help. What help? I guess if I didn't have a job, I could come back any time or some toher time, but this was the only time for the forseeable future that I would be able to drop in during store hours. I went home, did a little more research on the web and ordered one for less at Adorama...free shipping...tax free...it was at my house in 3 or 4 business days. Oh -- and the B&M doesn't carry Pentax and they almost giggle if you say "Pentax".

I'll go back and give them another chance...when I get time...if I can get there during store hours...and if I can get the info I need.

stevebrot · 12-30-2008, 12:56 PM

I skipped over most of the flame threads before posting something of my own here. I have lived in a number of small towns in the Northwest corner of the US in the 40 years or so that I have been taking pictures. Almost all of them had some sort of camera shop and almost all of those shops were excellent. They usually had pretty good stock of even small stuff (like the flash shoe for a Spotmatic) and what they did not have, they could order.

For me, I appreciated the complete stock of films and darkroom supplies. I also used them for film processing with the knowledge that the work would be done right and that the negatives/slides would be returned clean and free of scratches. In the last several years, all of these shops in the smaller towns have quit business.

I suppose that the demise of these businesses are due to a number of factors. It is easy to blame the Internet, but to be honest, most cost-conscious buyers were dealing mail-order with B&H, Adorama, Ritz, Spiratone, and others long before anyone on this forum even owned their first 14.4 modem. I personally think that the following factors all played a part:

The shift in products to inexpensive, low-margin electronics
Short product marketing life-span. How can you make money in a small market when your stock is obsolete six months after it hits the shelves?
The advent of digital cutting into film and processing sales
Competition from local "big box" stores
Several deep economic recessions within a three decade span

I now live just north of Portland, Oregon USA. In the last 10 years, we have seen several top-notch camera stores quit business. The deepest loss was probably Tymer's in Vancouver. They supported both professional photography and high quality reprographics on a regional level and were always a pleasure to work with.

Portland now has three stores that cater to professionals and serious amateurs, a couple of Mom-and-Pop operations in the 'burbs, a vintage equipment shop, various Ritz outlets, another small chain, and a scattering of small camera repair places. I am glad for the resources we have. One of the stores has an extensive inventory of odd parts and accessories. That place is also the only "real" Pentax dealer in town. The clerks are a bit surly, their location sucks (no parking) as do their hours, but I still do business with them when I can.

When I am shopping for new gear, I like to give the local shops a chance to counter the Internet price + shipping. Sometimes they are willing, sometimes they aren't. If they come close, it will be my privilege to buy from them.

Steve

*monochrome* · 12-30-2008, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Wheatfield

My argument in favour of B&M stores is the 16-50/2.8.....
. . .

I don't disagree with you. I'd guess there's the way things should be and the way things are.

**Damn Brit** · 12-30-2008, 01:05 PM

The best you can do these days is build a relationship with your local store (if you are lucky enough to have one). Using their printing services is one way to achieve this, if they know they are going to have a steady flow of income from you, there is more chance of them being flexible on price when you want to buy camera goods from them.

**Marc Langille** · 12-30-2008, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Damn Brit

The best you can do these days is build a relationship with your local store (if you are lucky enough to have one). Using their printing services is one way to achieve this, if they know they are going to have a steady flow of income from you, there is more chance of them being flexible on price when you want to buy camera goods from them.

Agreed Gary, since I can vouch for this method. It wasn't deliberate, it just evolved that way.

I am already there... and much, much more than most folks could ever want from a camera store!! They are super in everything they've done, including giving or loaning/sponsoring me with equipment.

Cheers,
Marc

12-30-2008, 01:52 PM

My wife has a Casio P&S Camera. Of late, she has shown interest in perhaps having a camera like mine but not as advanced. When the K2000 was introduced, I thought that this might be just what would fill the bill.

Our Christmas budget was already set and our lists were mostly already complete so a new camera for her was not one of the christmas items.

I was out and about today running errands and doing what recently retired people do, trying to figure out what to do with all of that time, so I decided to go to the one camera store (we have three) in Savannah that carries Pentax.

When I asked if they had gotten the K2000D in yet, the owner responded "You mean the K200D?", "Nope" said I, "the K2000D". The owner replied "Pentax doesn't make a K2000D." (Shows that he no longer has much interest in Pentax) I then said "OK, let me see the K200D." "I don't have them in stock, I'll have to order it if you're interested." 'Do you have any Pentax Cameras in stock?" "No, special order only these days." "Business is slow and I have to carry what sells best and that's not Pentax." This is the same store from which I purchased my K100D and K20D.

So, I guess I'll have to order a K2000D/Kit from one of the online stores and take my chances.

I really want to support my local guy but the only way it seems I can do that is to switch to N or C. That's probably not going to happen.

BPT · 12-30-2008, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Damn Brit

The best you can do these days is build a relationship with your local store (if you are lucky enough to have one). Using their printing services is one way to achieve this, if they know they are going to have a steady flow of income from you, there is more chance of them being flexible on price when you want to buy camera goods from them.

I went to my local store to get prints and ended up not using them due to cost of prints for the size I wanted. I needed 2 10x30 prints for Christmas and the local shop wanted $67 for each print. I simply cant afford that, maybe their smaller prints will be more affordable. Their prints are a lot cheaper if you also get them to frame the prints but I also make my own frames

Helen Oster · 12-31-2008, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by monochrome

...... Sometimes I just think the hell with it and sit on my (skinny) backside and order from B&H - BY TELEPHONE TO A PARTICULAR SALESMAN (I don't get that from Adorama) - just to avoid a drive to be told what I want and don't want

Actually, you can get exactly that from Adorama - send me a PM any time!

Originally Posted by monochrome

That being said, getting big enough to compete, but staying small enough to be personal seems to be an answer.

Adorama may not be as big as our biggest competitor in terms of size, but we believe we are on price!

As for customer care, any problem, concern or query with a product or an order from Adorama, you are very welcome to contact me directly: helen.oster@adoramacamera.com

Sincerely

Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador