The Chart - Page 3

flyer · 07-16-2009, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by ve2vfd

W . Personally I think thats ridiculous as for every person who pays to use a private clinic it frees up a spot in the public system and speeds up service for everyone else.

Pat

This is where I agree to disagree. It doesn't free a spot in the public system, since the public system is already short of doctors, and those operating in the private clinics just make the problem worst for the public system. This is just a way for wealthy people to go "in front of the line", since they'll pay the bill, then ask the medicare system to reimburse them. It would be an alternative IF the public system had enough MDs. Right now, our best specialist are going to the States, lured by higher wages and more benefits.

*NaClH2O* · 07-16-2009, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by graphicgr8s

More like 45 million with out health insurance. But a report I read said about 9 million choose to be without it (and they make 50 grand or more) If you have no money by law you must be treated. (I saw the sign in the hospital when my wife was in the ER)

Oh please! As long as you are sick enough to get some attention in an ER somewhere! Just very recently I got health care, for the 10 or so years before that my health plan was a four part plan.
1. Don't get sick or get into an accident
2. If you do get sick or into an accident hope and pray it's not life threatening, and keep going to work thereby infecting everyone else with what you've got.
2. If you do get sick or hurt and it IS life threatening go to the ER and hope/pray someone will treat you before you die
3. Declare bankruptcy so you can afford the medications.

I was lucky. Many many millions aren't. It is a national disgrace.

NaCl(and the social/financial costs are absolutely staggering)H2O

*graphicgr8s* · 07-16-2009, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Wheatfield

That is almost mindlessly simplistic.
Anyway, I know quite a few very well off people as well. They have employees who make slightly more than minimum wage.
Not everyone has the wherewithall to become bank presidents, and if they did, who would sweep the floors?

Should the guy sweeping the floor make $20 an hour though? Minimum wage jobs are designed as stepping stones to higher wages. My first job I made $2.50. 50 cents above minimum. I worked my way up. It was my foot in the door. It allowed my employer to hire people and train them. Then the sky was the limit.

*ve2vfd* · 07-17-2009, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by flyer

This is where I agree to disagree. It doesn't free a spot in the public system, since the public system is already short of doctors, and those operating in the private clinics just make the problem worst for the public system.

Doctors in the private system are not making it worse as they would not be in the public system anyways... they would leave the province for better working conditions.

I asked my doctor at the private clinic in Pointe Claire the last time I went what he would do if they outlawed private clinics, he told me he would move to another province or the states. He doesn't want to be in the public system as the conditions are awefull.

This is just a way for wealthy people to go "in front of the line", since they'll pay the bill, then ask the medicare system to reimburse them. It would be an alternative IF the public system had enough MDs.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way... When I go to a private clinic, I pay cash and get a percentage reinbursed by my insurance company. Medicare pays NOTHING.

Right now, our best specialist are going to the States, lured by higher wages and more benefits.

They mostly leave because the working conditions for doctors and nurses are AWEFULL here. Salary also enters into it, and I certainly understand them... after 10 years of school I would also go where the $$$ is highest.

We also lose most of our paramedics to Ontario... they make DOUBLE the salary there and the work conditions are 500% better than urgences santé.

Pat

*graphicgr8s* · 07-17-2009, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by ve2vfd

Doctors in the private system are not making it worse as they would not be in the public system anyways... they would leave the province for better working conditions.

I asked my doctor at the private clinic in Pointe Claire the last time I went what he would do if they outlawed private clinics, he told me he would move to another province or the states. He doesn't want to be in the public system as the conditions are awefull.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way... When I go to a private clinic, I pay cash and get a percentage reinbursed by my insurance company. Medicare pays NOTHING.

They mostly leave because the working conditions for doctors and nurses are AWEFULL here. Salary also enters into it, and I certainly understand them... after 10 years of school I would also go where the $$$ is highest.

We also lose most of our paramedics to Ontario... they make DOUBLE the salary there and the work conditions are 500% better than urgences santé.

Pat

I don't want to start an argument (I know, hard to believe) but would like to discuss this further.
If you're losing your better doctors to other provinces or to the United States than how can you say you are really getting good care. You are after all being treated by "runner ups" so to speak.

I've had a couple of my medical customers shut down because they see what is coming. One of them invented tools to help osteotomy surgeries. Sold out while it was still worth something. These are the type of people we need. The thinkers, inventors and we are loosing them. I've had to OB's that have given us warning they will close Jan 2010 because of what they know is coming.

flyer · 07-17-2009, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by ve2vfd

They mostly leave because the working conditions for doctors and nurses are AWEFULL here.

Pat

That's the catch 21 answer. Conditions are awfull because of the shortage of personnel. And the shortage of personel is generated by people leaving the system to work in other countries or provinces, thus compounding the problem. When Mr. Rochon was health minister, he laid off thousands of trained and experienced personel without any plan to fill the gaps just to show he could bring the healthcare cost down. The result is people going on waiting list. As for medicare not reimbursing the cost of private clinics, I know they reimburse a good part of it if you don't have private insurance. My wife receives some care from private clinics, and the gov't reimburse a percentage of the cost.

flyer · 07-17-2009, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by graphicgr8s

I don't want to start an argument (I know, hard to believe)

Miracles do happen.

*Blue* · 07-17-2009, 11:53 AM

When gp MDs start making $2/hr more than the guy sweeping the floor, there will be even more of a shortage of MDs or at least ones I want near me with a scapel.

However, the private insurance like it or not is going to get hammered if the current plan goes through. You will be able to keep it but if you are single and get married, you want be able to add the spouse and if there are any minors added, you won't be able to add them either.

Plus, the plan on saving a bunch of money on preventative medicine. Dumb asses like Joe Biden forgets that there are a lot of us that have been doing that for decades. I think his brain damage is flairing up.

The real problem with health care is excalating costs. Its a 3-sided puzzle to the blame. Part of it started when hospital grew to gargantuan sizes and were taken over by "grocery store chain" type companies. Community hospitals have been disappearing for years.

There is one thing that people are missing. People that usually go bankrupt from medical bills have a catastrophic illiness or accident that isn't govered under general insuarance anyway unless people have an additional policy.

A broken leg causing bankruptcy is total horse dung undless the guy is working at McDonalds. Hodgkins lymphoma in advanced stages on the other hand is a differenct matter ant that could do someone in even if they have general insurance.

This government plan isn't going to deal with catastrohphic situations any better than the current system.

If a ship is sinking and the bilge pumps aren't keeping up, drilling holes in the bottom of the hull isn't going to let water out.

I think reforming our current system would be a better appproach than letting D.C. try to manage it.

I don't view Blue-Cross Blue Shield as my friend but I don't consider a giant Federal Government a friend either. I agree with James Madison and G.W. on that one.

*graphicgr8s* · 07-17-2009, 12:02 PM

One of the many problems with any type insurance is people expect it to take care of the little crap. Like you said, we need a catastophic type plan. To handle the multi million dollar stuff like cancer, transplants, whatever. You also need to stop the lawsuits and the exhorbitant awards for people spilling coffee between their legs. I know that wasn't the hospital it was Micky D but you get the idea. You need to stop that crap so the first million per year that comes in doesn't go to malpractice insurance. Get an office visit back down to $100 or less and pay for it out of your pocket. With a yearly cap.

*graphicgr8s* · 07-17-2009, 03:02 PM

Well 8 maybe 9 posts and so far a good discussion without argument. I like it. So who will come along and spoil it?

**Damn Brit** · 07-17-2009, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by flyer

This is where I agree to disagree. It doesn't free a spot in the public system, since the public system is already short of doctors, and those operating in the private clinics just make the problem worst for the public system. This is just a way for wealthy people to go "in front of the line", since they'll pay the bill, then ask the medicare system to reimburse them. It would be an alternative IF the public system had enough MDs. Right now, our best specialist are going to the States, lured by higher wages and more benefits.

This is also a problem in Britain where there is both public and private healthcare. The public healthcare system and the public lose out. The taxpayers subsidise a student training to be a doctor, the private healthcare industry cherry picks the best students when they graduate. If you go to a private clinic to say, have a hip replacement and there is a complication after the fact, the public system takes over. If you have private healthcare insurance you can elect to go to stay in a public instead of a private hospital and they will actually pay you for doing so.

*graphicgr8s* · 07-17-2009, 06:23 PM

In order to pay for the womb to the tomb plan they will of course tac the rich. With the tax rate proposed we will have a combined tax rate on the rich greater than France's.

**Damn Brit** · 07-17-2009, 06:25 PM

If only Reagan had stuck to the movies.

*graphicgr8s* · 07-17-2009, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Damn Brit

If only Reagan had stuck to the movies.

So true. God I miss 19% interest rates. Unemployment like what we have now. Sure wish he hadn't fixed it.

**Damn Brit** · 07-17-2009, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by graphicgr8s

So true. God I miss 19% interest rates. Unemployment like what we have now. Sure wish he hadn't fixed it.

He may have fixed some things but he also set up the global disaster that we are enduring now.