Religion in politics

jct us101 · 10-26-2009, 09:56 PM

I'm doing a debate on Wednesday where I have to argue why religion shouldn't be part of politics. Can someone help me out?

flippedgazelle · 10-26-2009, 10:10 PM

Google "separation of church and state constitution"... you'll get a bunch of applicable results.

Gooshin · 10-26-2009, 10:10 PM

Religion is a spiritual belief that cannot be proved or refuted on any concrete grounds. Its teachings, if anything, are only there to provide a framework for how one should behave socially and provide a general direction of social growth, both inner and outer.

for your argument, make a clear distinction of what you mean by "politics", because politics is a very broad term.

If you define "politics" as the governening body dedicated to containment and progress of the economic position of any given country, then you should have a relativly easy time stating that "religion" has no place within it. As religion offers no complex economic models, no help with the heavily mathematical and statistical approach to short and long term planning of a nations resources (natural, human, and industrial), it offers no guidance on complex psychology concepts needed to cleverly implement "marketing", and so on and so forth.

Find me in the bible the equation for regression analysis...

If you fail to define "politics" you might be put into a spot where by "politics" in one way or another deals with social interaction, particular when powers to be of different nations meet one another to discuss treaties and what not.

However you could argue that history has shown that "good deeds" and "sound decisions" have been reached among those of different religions, drawing further on the fact that religion initially had nothing to do with it, and that "social dynamics" is a concept that could be taught and learned independantly of any spiritual belief.

ultimatly if you take away the "after death" part of almost any religion, you will find that the goal of all of them is to find harmoneous balance in your current habitat. Some religions focus more on balance with nature, others on balance with thy neighbor. So if you really get put on the spot, you can regress into a position of "you can have your religion, but it most definetly should not be the driving force for your nation, otherwise you'll end up like the Vatican, a tourist attraction where you have 2 Pope's per square kilometer"

my personal belief is that save the "after death" part, every religion falls apart because their teaching could be arrived from a different avenue. I do not need "God" to tell me that stealing is bad because jail time, or a possible bullet in my ass are good enough deterants.

anyway thats just some of my unprocessed thought..

have fun!

jct us101 · 10-26-2009, 10:38 PM

Wow, thanks! I'll be sure to bring that up.

jct us101 · 10-26-2009, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by flippedgazelle

Google "separation of church and state constitution"... you'll get a bunch of applicable results.

You'd be surprised. I get the same 5 over and over.

*smc* · 10-26-2009, 11:34 PM

Because it creates a Theocracy instead of a Democracy. The rule of law as stated by those in charge are unchallengeable as to do so is immoral. Immoral acts can be managed through violence, which itself is tolerated in the name of "good".

It's the perfect scheme......

*Wheatfield* · 10-27-2009, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by jct us101

I'm doing a debate on Wednesday where I have to argue why religion shouldn't be part of politics. Can someone help me out?

Because eventually the zealots, who are the religious types who are truly attracted to power end up being in charge. The entire "Muslim problem" that the world is facing is caused by a lack of separation between church and state.
As soon as religious leaders are put into positions of authority over a population, the rule of law tends to become based on hte most narrow minded fundamentalist aspects of that religion.
Unfortunately, the children of Allah have a very narrow minded father.

bonovox · 10-27-2009, 07:52 AM

IS it fair for every other worldview to be represented in politics, but not the worldview that believes in God?

This is a strange double standard!

It's ok for someone who doesn't believe in God to have their decisions and frame of reference influenced by their worldview, but for a Christian to do the same thing - no way!

I do believe in seperation of church and state, but think ti is ridiculous to expect our elected representatives to ignore their own worldview (an impossibility) if they are a Christian, but not expect the same (impossible) standard from pagans. Doesn't make sense to me.

There is no such thing as a set of neutral values. Every individual's values are informed by their particular worldview.

Gooshin · 10-27-2009, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by bonovox

There is no such thing as a set of neutral values. Every individual's values are informed by their particular worldview.

and where do you think this worldview comes from?

it doesnt take much to look at the world and see a general consensus among certain things.

when you go to China, you dont say hello by punching your friend in the nose. And likewise i wouldnt expect a Texan to call their waiter by firing a gun off in the air..

On a large enough time line, the survival rate for everyone will drop to zero.

"religion" has no capacity to dictate what a modern nation needs to do in order to achieve economic growth and stability, the best they can do is guide the individual on some journey of inner enlightenment.

*VaughnA* · 10-27-2009, 08:23 AM

Off to get some popcorn....back in 5.

*Wheatfield* · 10-27-2009, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by bonovox

I do believe in seperation of church and state, but think ti is ridiculous to expect our elected representatives to ignore their own worldview (an impossibility) if they are a Christian, but not expect the same (impossible) standard from pagans. Doesn't make sense to me.

This is why the more fundamentalist Mullahs extol the virtues of strapping on an explosive vest and blowing up shopping malls.
This is why large airplanes get flown into office towers in NYC.

Or are you thinking that it's OK for Christians in positions of power to project their worldview onto their politics but it's not OK for other religious leaders to do the same?

Fundamentalists of any stripe are dangerous and should not be allowed into decision making positions. However, one thing that fundamentalists seem perversely attracted to doing is changing the way other people live their lives to conform to their worldview. The best way to do this is to get elected to office.

*graphicgr8s* · 10-27-2009, 09:30 AM

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Actually the Constitution says nothing about separation. It only speaks of what government can't do.

*reeftool* · 10-27-2009, 09:58 AM

I believe that church and state should be seperated and I say this speaking as a Christian and not as a outside viewer who practices no religion. In the USA our constitution gives us religious freedom for everyone and all faiths or the option of none at all. You can't remove that freedom from one group no matter how offensive they are without setting a precedent and ultimitely ditching the idea of religious freedom. We also have a right to free speach and free press so the expression of religious beliefs can't be removed from the political process either so the arguement of removing religion completely from politics can't happen. There is nothing more disturbing to me than flag waving people demanding that freedoms for certain groups be limited. It's all or nothing. My freedom is also your freedom. Our constitution was set up that way to prevent the ever changing political winds from removing those freedoms. It hasn't always been perfect and it seems there are always politicians looking to find a way around it.

All politicians are looking to project their worldview whether it is religious based or secular. In a democratic system we vote for the ones who we seem to agree with the most. It has also been seen through history that politicians will sieze the moment and try to put limits on freedoms they don't particularly agree with. We have seen a lot of that since 2001. People often vote with emotion based on rhetoric after world changing events. Our constitution is a standard that can't be easily changed on a whim. When the whim does manage to change it, the results aren't good. Prohibition was the perfect example. Politicians will continue to project their views whether it is religious or secular. The constitution gives freedom to both and protects the rest of us from those who want to abuse their position.

MRRiley · 10-27-2009, 10:10 AM

What the 1st Amendment (to the U.S. Constitution) does is prohibits religious people who happen to be in charge of our government from imposing their religious dogmas, strictures and viewpoints upon those of a different religion (or lack thereof). It also prohibits non-religious or anti-religious politicians from preventing the exercise of religious beliefs by religious persons. You cannot have one without the other.

Of course this only applies to the United States. Your mileage may vary in other parts of the world...

Even Jesus believed in the separation of church and state...

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21)

Mike

Gooshin · 10-27-2009, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by reeftool

I believe that church and state should be seperated and I say this speaking as a Christian and not as a outside viewer who practices no religion. In the USA our constitution gives us religious freedom for everyone and all faiths or the option of none at all. You can't remove that freedom from one group no matter how offensive they are without setting a precedent and ultimitely ditching the idea of religious freedom. We also have a right to free speach and free press so the expression of religious beliefs can't be removed from the political process either so the arguement of removing religion completely from politics can't happen.

So do you believe that church and state should be separated.. or that they cannot be separated?