Islamophobia in Europe: Banning Minarets - Page 4

*Ex Finn.* · 11-03-2009, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by flippedgazelle

Wait... isn't Europe one big oddly-shaped, homogenous, socialist blob?
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No, not really. What I hear is EU sucks and send the non working, handout demanding immigrants back to where they came from

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This is just second hand stuff that I have heard.

Cheers. Mike.

*Ash* · 11-03-2009, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by waqas

Why are all Muslims judged based on the acts of Osama bin Laden (if that was his act)?

Who's judging all muslims by what Osama did?
One only has to look as Islam itself to see how it may not gel well with some societies...

flyer · 11-03-2009, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Ash

I'd have a lot to say about Islam, given my experience, but I'll stop short after saying this... the history of Islam is thwarted with crusades against non-believers, gaining political power to suit their cause, gaining influence step by step through the compassion of the society they disagree with, then use this to ultimately plunder the society through Islamic law and the establishment of an Islamic state.

Sounds exactly like what the Christians have been doing for the last two thousand years.

flippedgazelle · 11-03-2009, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by flyer

Sounds exactly like what the Christians have been doing for the last two thousand years.

"the Christians"? Who are they?

*Ash* · 11-03-2009, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by flyer

Sounds exactly like what the Christians have been doing for the last two thousand years.

Was waiting for that. Yep, sure. Seems to be part of human nature, but isn't scriptural for Christians...
- where's 'Christian law' mandated?

*gokenin* · 11-03-2009, 06:02 PM

The only thing I want to know is how something thats happening in Switzerland has become an attack on the United States and its relations with the Islamic world? We can no more comdemn the entire population of Switzerland for the behavior of a few until they vote and adopt this law that is proposed until then its just the ramblings of an extremist group.

junyo · 11-03-2009, 06:32 PM

I keep hearing that I should be just as afraid of "right wing extremists" and the ever handy boogeeman "Christians", but I'd take a fairly significant bet that I could publicly piss on a Bible, douse it with lighter fluid, and light it on fire in far less risk of decapitation in most parts of the world than the same set of actions performed with a Koran.

Interesting tangent.

*Ash* · 11-03-2009, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by gokenin

The only thing I want to know is how something thats happening in Switzerland has become an attack on the United States and its relations with the Islamic world? We can no more comdemn the entire population of Switzerland for the behavior of a few until they vote and adopt this law that is proposed until then its just the ramblings of an extremist group.

The US is to be blamed for everything... don't you know?

*Ash* · 11-03-2009, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by junyo

I keep hearing that I should be just as afraid of "right wing extremists" and the ever handy boogeeman "Christians", but I'd take a fairly significant bet that I could publicly piss on a Bible, douse it with lighter fluid, and light it on fire in far less risk of decapitation in most parts of the world than the same set of actions performed with a Koran.

Interesting tangent.

You don't even need to go that far...

How about just openly confessing your faith and wanting to share it with others in an Islamic country? I wonder what cries of disgust the Western World would get if muslims were not permitted to evangelise or openly practice their Islam?

*isteve · 11-03-2009, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by waqas

Of all places it's Switzerland where people are now openly condemning minarets, 60 years after the persecution of Jews now it's the Muslims who are at the receiving end of prejudice and hatred, how come the "civilized" nations use such nice words like "freedom" and "liberty" while they are openly condemning a faith that is followed by 25 percent of the world's population?
Will Switzerland Vote to Ban Minarets on Mosques? - TIME

You are willing to condemn all "civilised nations" for the actions of one? How is that different to blaming all Muslims for the actions of a few?

I don't condone the Swiss action, but neither to I hold the Swiss, who are a strongly independent nation and not even part of the European Economic Community, as representatives of Western Europe as a whole. But then I don't hold my (muslim) Doctor personally responsible for the Tube bombings in London either.

As for condemning a faith followed by 25% of the worlds population, I personally think we should have freedom to say what we think about all things, including faith, without burning flags or declaring fatwahs, but in some muslim countries I would most certainly get a life sentence just for saying what I think. Mind you, as a staunch atheist (and proud of it) I would probably get lynched in the Bible Belt as well.

The only thing I really can't stand is intollerance.

*isteve · 11-03-2009, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by flyer

Sounds exactly like what the Christians have been doing for the last two thousand years.

What, you mean only the Jews are innocent? No, wait a minute, they started all this off.... Damn we are all just crap!

Except me, I'm an atheist.

*Ash* · 11-03-2009, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by *isteve

What, you mean only the Jews are innocent? No, wait a minute, they started all this off.... Damn we are all just crap!

Except me, I'm an atheist.

But seriously, the answer to intolerance is not in opposing any belief, atheist or theist. It is in respecting the right of individuals to choose their own beliefs. This should go both ways (3 ways / all ways...)

keyser · 11-03-2009, 08:48 PM

I believe that religion - any religion - should be be private to the individual. Churches, temples and mosques have their place in society as it's where people of a certain religion can pray together. Basically, I agree with religion as a distinct entity that provides its members with spiritual and moral guidence.

What I don't agree with is anything that threatens the separtation of church, law & state.

Unfortunately, Islamic society often ends up with all three of these being one and the same thing. It forms what is essentially a breeding ground for extremism.

*Wheatfield* · 11-03-2009, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ash

The US is to be blamed for everything... don't you know?

It's a code violation to not blame the US for everything.

*isteve · 11-03-2009, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ash

But seriously, the answer to intolerance is not in opposing any belief, atheist or theist. It is in respecting the right of individuals to choose their own beliefs. This should go both ways (3 ways / all ways...)

Nice theory, not workable in reality.

Those of us living in secular states under a rule of law which maintains freedom of religion as a right (as well as freedom of expression) can practice any religion or none at all because the same secular state guarantees our protection.

However almost all religions are in direct conflict with secular laws regarding equal rights. Quite apart from anything else, denying non-believers the right to paradise is an equal rights issue.

Therefore freedom of religion can only be tolerated within a secular framework that has to take precedence over all other laws, religious or otherwise.

This by definition implies that freedom of religion (in its true sense) is actually strictly curtailed so that no such freedom actually exists. All religious groups therefore (rightly) feel persecuted, but would without irony persecute other groups as soon as they were in charge.

And they all want to be in charge because, darn it, they know whats best for all of us.

However I seriously think us secularists need to stop being so darned nice and organise.....