Islamophobia in Europe: Banning Minarets

*waqas* · 11-03-2009, 10:48 AM

Of all places it's Switzerland where people are now openly condemning minarets, 60 years after the persecution of Jews now it's the Muslims who are at the receiving end of prejudice and hatred, how come the "civilized" nations use such nice words like "freedom" and "liberty" while they are openly condemning a faith that is followed by 25 percent of the world's population?
Will Switzerland Vote to Ban Minarets on Mosques? - TIME

*deadwolfbones* · 11-03-2009, 11:06 AM

Pretty messed up.

*Ash* · 11-03-2009, 12:49 PM

Sad. Such campaigns seeking to victimise people for being different, whether stemming from prejudice or otherwise, is so counterproductive.

Gooshin · 11-03-2009, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Ash

Sad. Such campaigns seeking to victimise people for being different, whether stemming from prejudice or otherwise, is so counterproductive.

kind of reminds me of democracy

*Ash* · 11-03-2009, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Gooshin

kind of reminds me of democracy

which then becomes dictatorship

*waqas* · 11-03-2009, 01:25 PM

What's sadder is that these countries (including some of the richest, aka "civilized" countries) have laws that will get you jailtime if you say that the Jewish holocaust may not have killed 5.5 million people.

I used to think that Europe was better than post-9/11 America on "Free thinking", liberty and other nice things but I was so wrong, the US is way better, despite the demonization and dehumanization of Muslims in the media, the proportion of racially/religiously motivated attacks is way better in the United States. The constitution, the system of this country, provide you the opportunity to claim your rights (even if it's not available to Guantanamo Bay "detainees", it's available to almost all US citizens).

Gooshin · 11-03-2009, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ash

which then becomes dictatorship

why?

10 guys on an island, 9 black 1 white, lets just assume for a moment that all 9 black guys dont like the white guy, so they "vote him off".

we as an audience might feel bad for the white guy, we can throw out such words as racism and intolerance. But if the remaining 9 guys feel better after whitey tootles off then why should our opinion really matter? Its their ****ing island.

Switzerland is not Australia, and it is not America. Europe's Islam problem is quite different, you have to realize how close to home these conflicts are for these people.

*waqas* · 11-03-2009, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ash

which then becomes dictatorship

But even if it's a democracy, what if the right-wing SVP is supported by majority? What if BNP gets majority vote and right-wing parties aka "Islamic extremists" get majority vote in Pakistan? In Pakistan all the religious parties combined have never won more than 13% of the vote (still it's a big concern in the Western media) but in India the extremist Hindu party BJP did win, they went on to test nuclear weapons in May 1998 and their language was extremely hawkish before Pakistan tested its own weapons later in the same month. In Gujarat massacre of 2002, hundreds of Muslims were burned alive, there are reports that Governor Narendra Moody gave Hindu mobs "open hand" for three days, this was a democracy, in fact "the largest democracy of the world".

gujarat massacre 2002 - Google Search
Explosive Report by Indian Magazine Exposes Those Responsible for 2002 Gujarat Massacre

[q]Haresh Bhatt is a BJP member of the Gujarat state assembly from Godhra. He said Narendra Modi gave Hindu rightwing activists three days to act with impunity.

HARESH BHATT: [translated] He had given us three days to do whatever we could. He said he would not give us time after that. He said this openly. After three days, he asked us to stop, and everything came to a halt. It stopped after three days. Even the army was called in. All the forces came, and we had three days and did what we had to do in those three days. Yes, he did what no other chief minister could have done. [/q]

*Ash* · 11-03-2009, 01:49 PM

I wasn't referring to Switzerland... a comment made in jest.

Yeah, that may be democracy - doesn't mean that's the right thing to do, even if they don't care. That's why there is such a thing as international sanctions...

*waqas* · 11-03-2009, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Gooshin

why?

10 guys on an island, 9 black 1 white, lets just assume for a moment that all 9 black guys dont like the white guy, so they "vote him off".

we as an audience might feel bad for the white guy, we can throw out such words as racism and intolerance. But if the remaining 9 guys feel better after whitey tootles off then why should our opinion really matter? Its their ****ing island.

Switzerland is not Australia, and it is not America. Europe's Islam problem is quite different, you have to realize how close to home these conflicts are for these people.

I'm assuming that your interpretation is something like this: "The Europeans live close to those savage Muslims so they have to act that way"... ? Why are Muslims perceived as "the other" and why are the "Judeo-Christian" values not called "Judeo-Christian Islamic" values? Islamic values are no different from the Biblical values; love your neighbor, do not kill in vain, do not steal, each of the Ten Commandments is there in Islam as well.

*mtroute* · 11-03-2009, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Gooshin

kind of reminds me of democracy

troll.......

*raz-0* · 11-03-2009, 01:55 PM

I think part of the reason you see more of this type of stuff in Europe is because you have a more active political threat of Islamic groups attempting to get Sharia law implemented as government law.

The US doesn't ahve as much of an issue because we have a larger population, Muslims are not that large of a population segment yet in any manner that could sway the vote in a manner that matters nationally, and even if they were, we have a constitution that presents a pretty huge roadblock to such laws.

Most European nations don't have that, and thus it is a much more active fight with much more credible threats. That quickly devolves into trying to convince the population that they don't want to live like that and that it is a threat, which never looks good.

Gooshin · 11-03-2009, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ash

I wasn't referring to Switzerland... a comment made in jest.

Yeah, that may be democracy - doesn't mean that's the right thing to do, even if they don't care. That's why there is such a thing as international sanctions...

On who's behalf?

Gooshin · 11-03-2009, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by waqas

I'm assuming that your interpretation is something like this: "The Europeans live close to those savage Muslims so they have to act that way"... ? Why are Muslims perceived as "the other" and why are the "Judeo-Christian" values not called "Judeo-Christian Islamic" values? Islamic values are no different from the Biblical values; love your neighbor, do not kill in vain, do not steal, each of the Ten Commandments is there in Islam as well.

your assumption is wrong, read what raz-0 said, thats pretty bang on.

The question is of social integrity and productivity as my island comment was made to demonstrate.

Cultural integration can work, but it rarely does, and oftentimes leads to conflict of one sort or another, and i am talking as someone that lives in a city that has a 42% of its population as some type of visible minority.

The current conflicts are in countries of Islamic faith, and before some idiot brings in the Jew comments, the difference here is that the persecution of Jews was groundless, Jews were not blowing Germany's buildings to bits and fighting guirilla warfare to rid the rest of the world of "infidels".

The Islam extremist, and this is the key word here, extremists, have taken the Koran in a way that the rest of the peaceful Muslims are advocating as wrong.

But, hey, sorry to hear that but whether they read the Koran wrong or not has no bearing on the fact that they are blowing things up and we have no way of knowing the difference between you or them!

So what do you propose?

Then all you see is hangs go up and everyone stares at their feet.. because the answer is so complex no one has found it yet.

So until things cool down, the Swiss are trying to limit their exposure and possible conflict to as little as possible.

*waqas* · 11-03-2009, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by raz-0

I think part of the reason you see more of this type of stuff in Europe is because you have a more active political threat of Islamic groups attempting to get Sharia law implemented as government law.

The US doesn't ahve as much of an issue because we have a larger population, Muslims are not that large of a population segment yet in any manner that could sway the vote in a manner that matters nationally, and even if they were, we have a constitution that presents a pretty huge roadblock to such laws.

Most European nations don't have that, and thus it is a much more active fight with much more credible threats. That quickly devolves into trying to convince the population that they don't want to live like that and that it is a threat, which never looks good.

So you also agree that those Minarets are as bad as missiles and they must stop building Minarets if they want to stop Islamists from taking over? Based on that idea, Malaysia has 50% Muslim population and a big Christian and Hindu minority population, that shouldn't be a peaceful country, but the reality is different, the minorities are well-protected. Recently there was a protest by Muslims who used a cow's head in a procession, the Court fined those people for hurting the sentiments of Hindus and for provocating Hindus.