Canon 50D copies & improves on Pentax

[séamuis]

Personally, I wish they'd ignore this game and produce boutique cameras for those that want something different. I don't think they can touch Canikon in their markets. Where is the Limited body when we need it?

how could a company owned by another larger company become boutique? maybe when it was Pentax Corp. but that's impossible now, not that id want that.

[Nick_b]

Pentax really should go after the old school photographer market. Make an affordable Leica M8 for the masses. I don't understand why Pentax would fight the losing battle of trying to keep up with Canon and Nikon and now I guess you could say Sony too.

Imagine a Pentax ME digital with a pancake lens. That I would be interested in even if I do have thousands invested in Canon.

For some occasions the bells and whistles of a full sized DSLR do help but if I'm going for a walk downtown with my wife I want something small like a MF film camera.

[lithos]

I've yet to see an ad for a Pentax Limited lens.

That's a start, for me.

[wlachan]

Originally Posted by miriya

AF is killing Pentax..

Been 1.5+ decades since the FA series, nothing significant has been done. If not for the inferior AF, I believe the K10D/K20D would have done much much better on the market.

[wlachan]

Originally Posted by ogl

50D has old AF module too.

It is not about new or old, but how well it does in practice. At this moment, if 50D is anything like the 40D (and no reason to believe it is not), when mated with the right lenses, their AF simply smoke any Pentax. Pentax craved the K20D nicely, but missed the most signifncant factor that matters most. Features attract newcomers, but it is the actual performance that makes them stay. Pentax simply failed to convince most serious consumers to grow with the Pentax system.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by Wheatfield

The Canon has a list price of $1299.00. When it hits the street, expect a lower price, and expect it to drop further within a few months.
Expect it to be priced very close to the K20 once it is in stores.

CanonUSA lists it as $1399.00 and that is body only.

Canon EOS SLR Camera Systems

[GaryML]

Originally Posted by jms698

Canon EOS 50D Hands-on Preview: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review

- New 15 MP sensor
- High ISO
- User-selectable high-iso noise reduction
- Better (and maybe actually useful) weather sealing (though then you still have to invest in an "L" lens)
- per lens AF micro-adjust
- Lens profiles (like Pentax's MTF mode)

All sounds like copy-cat from the K20d.

However, Canon has, of course, one-upped Pentax with the 3" VGA screen, 6 fps, contrast-detecting live view, silent mode, and ISO 12800 (although best to wait and see how horribly noisy it is).

Still, for $300 more than the K20d, I'd say Pentax still has a pretty good value proposition.

You guys really need to get out more often and see what is happening in the real world. No, Canon doesn't care about Pentax with its tiny market share. The real competition is Nikon, and to a lesser extent Sony and Olympus.

The Canon 50D is a direct competitor to the Nikon D90 in the mid-level DSLR market, and copies features from the Nikon D3/D700/D300, such as the high-resolution rear LCD, excellent high ISO performance, high frames rates, etc. The Nikon D300 had lens profiles before Pentax, and Pentax pretty much copied this feature from Nikon (and in response to users hacking the firmware for the K10D). Nothing copied from Pentax, except perhaps the need to have the highest mega-pixels in this class, so 15MB instead of 12-14MP.

Neither Canon nor Nikon changed the AF in the mid-line range, partly because their AF systems in the 40D and D80 are already better than the competition in the this class, and partly to give pros and rich amateurs a reason to move up to the pro-class cameras. The new Canon and Nikon mid-range cameras are loaded with gimmicky features to entice point-and-shooters to move up and spend additional money beyond the base models, like "creative auto" mode for Canon, "active D lighting" for Nikon, live view (easy to implement with a CMOS sensor, and in everyone's product line now (except Pentax)), etc. None of this stuff interests me, but bells and whistles sell products to unsophisticated consumers. I don't follow Sony or Olympus too closely, but they also have lots of new models out in the basic to mid-level range with all of the gimmicky features as well, plus improved AF as compared to their previous models.

All Pentax has right now is an entry level body (K200D) and a mid-level body (K20D). At one point in time, the K20D may have been at the top of the mid-level pile in terms of image quality with the Samsung 14MB sensor comparing favorably to the 10MP sensors in the Canon 30D and Nikon D80 (ignoring the relatively poor AF performance and slow frame rates of the K20D). But the market has moved a lot in 8 months, and Pentax is now trailing the pack in the very competitive mid-level category. Hoya/Pentax still doesn't have any offerings in the semi-pro or pro markets, which build prestige for the brand and generate a profitable upgrade path for existing users. And let's not get started on the limited range of lenses choices (where's the 60-250mm f/4??) and other shortcomings in the SLR system.

IMHO, Hoya/Pentax better get their collective butts in gear by the end of the year, or else they run the risk of being completely pushed off the retail shelf. The market isn't going to wait while they spend a year re-organizing their corporate structure. And just cutting the price on last year's models isn't going to excite anyone.

[rparmar]

Originally Posted by GaryML

At one point in time, the K20D may have been at the top of the mid-level pile in terms of image quality with the Samsung 14MB sensor comparing favorably to the 10MP sensors in the Canon 30D and Nikon D80 (ignoring the relatively poor AF performance and slow frame rates of the K20D). But the market has moved a lot in 8 months, and Pentax is now trailing the pack in the very competitive mid-level category.

There is no APS-C camera with better image quality than the K20D. That is one thing it has going for it. And this is what the professionals say, not me. Read the British Journal of Photography where the K20D beat the Sony, and by implication other lesser sensors. Less noise reduction and better tonal detail is what this camera offers, to those smart enough to make use of it. Look at the various reviewers who have perked up their ears and finally noticed Pentax in the DSLR market. Their cameras and lenses are getting top ratings across the board.

Pentax has made more advances in the last year than in the previous ten.

But of course they cannot stand still. And yes, they cannot win on IQ only.

Originally Posted by GaryML

You guys really need to get out more often and see what is happening in the real world.

You might need to get out and notice that these competitors to the K20D are not yet released. Makes it kind of difficult to shoot with them. That's the real world.

[Nick_b]

The fuji DSLR, S5 I think, is probably the best for IQ. It has the best DR at least. Saying the K20 has better IQ then the rest sounds like Pentax propaganda. For most users the IQ difference between brands is negligable when talking about the most recent cameras. Canon has had great IQ for years now. There really isn't much difference between a rebel XT and a 40D or even 5D for that matter (5D obviously has better noise control at high ISO). Generally if you want better IQ you get a better lens not a better body.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by Nick_b

. . . Generally if you want better IQ you get a better lens not a better body.

Really? I guess I better put up that pin-hole lens I've been using and get a new Phoenix lens.

[GaryML]

Originally Posted by rparmar

There is no APS-C camera with better image quality than the K20D. That is one thing it has going for it.

But the high-end digital SLRs no longer use the "APS-C" sized sensors. I think we can safely conclude that the Canon EOS-1DS Mk. III has better image quality at low ISO, and the Nikon D3 has better image quality at high ISO, as compared to the K20D. Of course they are much more expensive cameras. There are cameras with "APS-C" sized sensors that match the Pentax for image quality (e.g., the Nikon D300). The Canon D50 and Nikon N90 are in the pipeline and will be available for sale and testing very soon (maybe 6-8 weeks). It is likely that they will match the Pentax for image quality, and possible surpass it. And these cameras will most likely far surpass the K20D in most other aspects of performance.

What Pentax has going for it is "bang for the buck." My point is that such an approach will only carry you so far. If the competition advances their technology twice as fast as Pentax, it will not be able to survive for very long as a viable option.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by GaryML

But the high-end digital SLRs no longer use the "APS-C" sized sensors. I think we can safely conclude that the Canon EOS-1DS Mk. III has better image quality at low ISO, and the Nikon D3 has better image quality at high ISO, as compared to the K20D. Of course they are much more expensive cameras. There are cameras with "APS-C" sized sensors that match the Pentax for image quality (e.g., the Nikon D300). The Canon D50 and Nikon N90 are in the pipeline and will be available for sale and testing very soon (maybe 6-8 weeks). It is likely that they will match the Pentax for image quality, and possible surpass it. And these cameras will most likely far surpass the K20D in most other aspects of performance.

What Pentax has going for it is "bang for the buck." My point is that such an approach will only carry you so far. If the competition advances their technology twice as fast as Pentax, it will not be able to survive for very long as a viable option. I will become the Holga of DSLRs; cheap but not that good.

The Canon EOS-1ds Mk III is a Full Frame CMOS with suggested retail of $7999. The 50D is NOT full frame.

Canon EOS 5D Digital SLR

[GaryML]

Originally Posted by Blue

The Canon EOS-1ds Mk III is a Full Frame CMOS with suggested retail of $7999. The 50D is NOT full frame.

Yes, of course. I never said otherwise. Read what I wrote.

[séamuis]

so - "could improve" OR "could be glitchy" (after how many years) ?

I was refereeing to a new AF system that could be glitchy, go back and read what I wrote and don't take things out of context to prove a point.

[rparmar]

Originally Posted by GaryML

But the high-end digital SLRs no longer use the "APS-C" sized sensors. I think we can safely conclude that the Canon EOS-1DS Mk. III has better image quality at low ISO, and the Nikon D3 has better image quality at high ISO, as compared to the K20D. Of course they are much more expensive cameras.

Which is why I restricted my discussion to APS-C. There is no point comparing apples to oranges or I may as well mention the new Hasselblad H3DII-50. I bet it puts those full-frame cameras to shame. Canon and Nikon will be out of business soon since they have nothing to compete with this.

Originally Posted by GaryML

What Pentax has going for it is "bang for the buck." My point is that such an approach will only carry you so far. If the competition advances their technology twice as fast as Pentax, it will not be able to survive for very long as a viable option.

It will always be possible to make cheaper cameras than Canikon trading on the advantages of Pentax (eg. SR in body, high detail IQ, compact highest-quality lenses). Let the competitors spend their research money on toy features. Pentax can focus on providing the sort of reliability and high quality semi-pro and pro shooters need.

The Leica M8 has let down certain professionals and is too expensive for semi-pros. Most buy it as a toy to sit on the mantel. Bring on the Pentax Limited Blackbody -- a compact all-metal DSLR that will position Pentax as the new Leica.

OK, it may not be cheap, but it could be the new Pentax flagship model.