usability - perspective from the competition

*nostatic* · 09-11-2009, 03:29 PM

In a fit of irrational exuberance (combined with some high iso needs), a new 5Dmk2 showed up yesterday. Well, actually I went to my local shop to pick it up, but that's not the point. For a couple of reasons I wanted to get better high iso performance and was going back and forth between the 5Dmk2 and D700. In the end lens choices and feel in my hand swung it towards the Canon. I figured I'd be able to learn a new UI and it wouldn't be so bad.

Well...it's only been a day but I have a few initial thoughts. First off, you can complain about a lot of things with Pentax, but frankly usability is not one of them. They get it pretty right. There are the right number of buttons to do the right number of things, and they are arranged in a logical fashion. That is in stark contrast to the 5Dmk2 which often requires multiple button pushes to accomplish seemingly simple tasks. And some things just can't be modified.

For instance - want to change the auto iso range on the 5Dmk2? Sorry...you can't. You'll get 100-3200 (or 200-6400 if you have highlight protect on) or nothing. Want to erase all images? Well, you have to do about 4 or 5 button pushes in different menus. Want to check focus on an image and immediately zoom to say, 10X? Sorry, you have to step through every focus step. Want to disconnect AF from the shutter and use the AF button? Sorry, you can't do that (at least I haven't figured out how to do it yet). Which brings us to another item - the manual. Canon likes "small and light" with the manual. Pentax is far better imho. At least there are online forums to find knowledge.

So at any rate, I'm sure I'll get used to thinking the "Canon way" and it is interesting to see the different look between the two cameras. But rest assured that imho Pentax has a far better UI.

creampuff · 09-11-2009, 03:44 PM

Isn't there a new section for discussing Canon?
Off-Brand (Canon, Nikon, etc.) Camera Talk - PentaxForums.com

*edl* · 09-11-2009, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by nostatic

...Want to disconnect AF from the shutter and use the AF button? Sorry, you can't do that (at least I haven't figured out how to do it yet)...

I'm sure you can use the AF-ON button and disconnect it from the shutter on the 5dmk2 - here's something I found from a quick google search - http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=31718570. Hope it helps.

III-2: Lens AF stop button function
0: AF stop
1: AF start
2: AE lock
3: AF point: M->Auto / Auto->Ctr
4: One Shot AI Servo
5: IS start

This is only relivant if you have one of the long white telephoto lenses that have the required "AF Stop" buttons usually situated around the end of the lens. The normal function of this is to over-ride the continuous auto focusing of the camera (in AI-Servo for example) whilst you are tracking some object effectivly locking the focus at the current point (like a temporary manual focus) whilst you hold the button down. The other options 1-5 allow for other possiable actions instead.

III-7: AF point area expansion
0: Disable
1: Enable

This is only valid when you have manually selected a single focus point (and are in AI-Servo I beleive). When disabled, it is only that point that is providing focus information to the camera. When enabled, it allows the surrounding assist points that are next to the selected focus point to be used to track possiable focusing targets. (Think of it as making the selected focus point bigger). This is usfull if you are tracking a fast moving object (such as a bird in flight) where you may not be able to keep the selected focus point fully on target.

IV-1: Shutter button / AF-ON button
0: Metering + AF start
1: Metering + AF start / AF stop
2: Metering start / Meter+AF start
3: AE lock / Metering + AF start
4: Metering + AF start / disable

This controls what the "half-press shutter button" does as well as what the back "AF-ON" button does when you press it. The / in the above descriptions seporates the two buttons. Allows you to seporate the "Focusing" and "Metering" actions which can be very useful as you can lock focus and exposure independantly before you finaly shoot.

0: Both half-press shutter & AF-ON do the same things, i.e. meter the current view AND start the auto-focus.

1: The half-press shutter still does the same BUT you can temporarily stop the camera from focusing if you HOLD the AF-ON button in. (Useful if you are using AI-Servo and you don't want to change the focus whilst you track, think of this as a temporary Manual focus setting mid shot).

2: Half-shutter ONLY meters it does not focus. Focusing is only done whilst you hold down the back AF-ON button (which also does metering).

3: Half-shutter doesn't focus and FREEZES, i.e. locks in the current metering (that was started by the AF-ON button) ready for the shot. Focusing and metering is started by using the back AF-ON button.

4: Same as 0 but with the AF-ON button doing nothing.

*nostatic* · 09-11-2009, 05:02 PM

thx for the link - that solves one of my quandries

*pingflood* · 09-11-2009, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by nostatic

thx for the link - that solves one of my quandries

Excuse me if I take remaining impressions with a grain of salt considering you couldn't get this one figured out.

You can also swap the AF-ON for the * button to make it have the same layout as some of the older bodies.

RBellavance · 09-11-2009, 06:27 PM

In my experience (Nikons D70, D300 & D700, Canons 10D & 40D), Canon's ergonomics & UI are the pits. Nikon's is a bit better, but not up to Pentax's level, IMHO.

The only things the Canon has going for it are the fast primes (24mm f/1.4, 35mm f/1.4, 50mm f/1.2, 85mm f/1.2), the resolution, and the video mode. Otherwise, the D700 absolutely trumps the 5DMkII on all fronts: AF sophistication & performance, metering, high-ISO IQ, build quality...

*nostatic* · 09-11-2009, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by pingflood

Excuse me if I take remaining impressions with a grain of salt considering you couldn't get this one figured out.

You can also swap the AF-ON for the * button to make it have the same layout as some of the older bodies.

I actually was stumped - I didn't understand the way they presented the information in the menu and the manual didn't help. The description on the DPR site (which I sadly didn't google, largely due to having sporadic network over the past week after moving) is much more clear.

You'd think a caltech phd would be able to figure it out

As for the other impressions - ergos and ui are somewhat individual, but you have to admit that Canon does some things quite bassackwards. And do you have a secret way to alter the auto ISO range?

Another nit - with every other camera I have when Aperture pulls in the images it asks if I want to eject, erase and eject, or just cancel the dialogue box. The Canon does not give me the option of erasing (which is my SOP). Is this a hidden setting somewhere as well?

*er1kksen* · 09-11-2009, 08:01 PM

After a week and a half with the 40D, I have to agree with your UI gripes, though I haven't had any problems figuring out functions yet (I tend to have a magical ability to find every random thing a new device can possibly do in the first few hours). What frustrates me is when I spend a long time searching for a certain function or option only to realize that the reason I can't find it is... it's not there!

I don't mind the button layout at all (much as I liked the K20D's) but I really do miss all those custom options.

Someday if I'm rich (right) I'll replace with a K-7 and all the equivalent lenses that I can't afford from Pentax.

Alas, I must view DSLRs as "work" cameras. My next "fun" camera will be a m4/3...

Can't argue with Canon's speed of operation and lens selection, though. That's what I'm in it for, after all.

*edl* · 09-12-2009, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by nostatic

thx for the link - that solves one of my quandries

YW - I also went through a similar learning curve with my D700 which arrived last month. Not too sure on the 5d, but as my first Nikon the D700 is fairly intuitive to me, just more menus then Pentax. And you have to learn the AF systems so you can pick the best one for the task at hand. Anyways, it took a few days to get everything tuned the way I want, now it's easy-breezy.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure once you get it dialed in, you'll like it.

PS - I like that you cannot easily "delete all images on card" with a double-press of the delete button. On Nikon, first push gives you the "are you sure?" question, second push deletes that image and moves on to the next image. Well, guess what happened when I picked up the K20D yesterday...

*alexeyga* · 09-12-2009, 12:05 PM

Going back to "delete-all" button... actually a better practice is to format a memory card every time you empty it... That's one of the thing i've always missed on Pentax bodies... it wasn't too bad on my old K10, but they have buried it a bit deeper on K7... On Nikon though all you have to do is double-hit the "mode+delete" buttons combination... no need to dig the menus...

It's the little things like this that make all the difference... K7 was very customizable.. just all the options for command dials... on the other hand D300s has less options... but there's less need to customize it to begin with... everything just falls into right place... etc... etc... etc...

*er1kksen* · 09-12-2009, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by alexeyga

It's the little things like this that make all the difference... K7 was very customizable.. just all the options for command dials... on the other hand D300s has less options... but there's less need to customize it to begin with... everything just falls into right place... etc... etc... etc...

...and with my 40D, I'd like to customize the hell out of it (direct print button? non-customizable? Really?), but I can't. Ah well, it takes pictures just fine.

*pingflood* · 09-12-2009, 06:12 PM

Yeah, Canon really insists on that damned direct print button. I wonder what percentage of users ever use it as intended. I remember seeing some mockup of the new 1-series posted somewhere that had like 6 direct print buttons

*nostatic* · 09-12-2009, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by pingflood

Yeah, Canon really insists on that damned direct print button. I wonder what percentage of users ever use it as intended. I remember seeing some mockup of the new 1-series posted somewhere that had like 6 direct print buttons

I think I saw a variation where there was one huge direct print button in place of the LCD screen.

*nostatic* · 09-12-2009, 10:57 PM

A few snaps from today - trying to get used to the UI and understand how the system behaves. A few ghost in the machine things on Pacific Coast Highway, then the reason I bought the camera - shooting in near darkness (in this case with 50/1.4). I could have done these with the K20d and 31ltd, but there would have been a lot more hunting, and I found iso3200 on the K20d to be really pushing it.