Poll - Basic but high end ME or LX-D Limited

[Kiss]

Would you consider to buy the camera described below:

This is a digital camera quite alike those Pentax ME or LX from late seveties. A really high quality camera ment to be used manually with manual lenses, though it has a basic autofocus and can handle the FA Limiteds. Think of it as a Leica M8 but single lens reflex insted of a rangefinder.

The camera with a pancake lens should fit inside the inner pocket of a normal jacket, just like those cameras from late seventies did. It should have a really high quality build in metal, plastic only where it is necessary, quite heavy compared to its size. No program modes exept aperture prio. No built in flash. No large grip making the camera clumsy. No menus to get lost in, except in the separate cable attached screen where jpeg-modes, dates and so on can be set up. Everything needed should be on camera controls, not in screen menus. Small, simple, just the basics, really made to be used fully manual with manual lenses, that is the leading thought. Quite expensive too, not aimed at beginners for sure (unless they really want to learn), think of it as a Leica M8, the same high quality, but SLR insted of a rangefinder.

It is fully compatibel with old manual K-mount lenses, not only half-compatibel as the current Pentax DSLR lineup. It has a large viewfinder ment for manual focus, with a magnification factor acording to sensor crop (1.5x magn. if 1.5 crop sensor).

Price? Imagine two models, a cheaper ME-D and a more expensive wheather sealed LX-D with larger sensor and antishake.

ME-D Limited = 3800 USD
LX-D Limited = 4800 USD


Now to the some specs:

* At least 10Mp and 1.5 crop or bigger (LX).
* Antishake (LX)
* Sensorcleaning (LX)
* ISO 100-3200
* Dust/Weather(LX) sealed.
* Aperture priority as the only automode.
* Self timer of course.
* Bulb to at least 1/4000s shutter.
* 98% or more coverage pentaprism viewfinder.
* Viewfinder magn. according sensor crop.
* Focusing screen with split screen and microprisms,
this camera is ment to be used manually.
* Mirror lock-up lever.
* Spot and centerweighted metering switch.
* AE lock button.
* Basic TTL and first/second curtain sync.
* Sync cable connector, not just the hot shoe.
* RAW/RAW+jpeg choosing button.
* Color temp/awb knob on camera.
* A smallish lcd indicating battery and pic count.
* Autofocus motor in the camera house.
* One single moveable focusing point.
(small joystick-knob like those on a laptop)
* Fully compatible with all manual Pentax lenses(fully,
not just the stop-down) plus the FA series.
* No screen on camera!! The screen should bee a separete
cable attached acessory (even wireless?) in different
sizes, the bigger ones with their own battery or power
supply. This screen could also serve as live-view
(imagine that, live-view on a 15 inch.) There could
be a smallish chimp-screen bundled with the camera,
that also have a mount for the hot shoe wich is
practical used as live-view.

So, would you buy it?

[wlachan]

Most Pentax users complained $1.3k was too much for the K20D, what makes anyone think a $3.8-4.8K Pentax body would sell? Want it maybe; buy it no.

[TaoMaas]

I'd love to have a digital LX or ME Super, but not at that price. You can buy a heck of a lot of film for a couple thousand dollars.

[Lowell Goudge]

I see no real distinction between the LX and the K10D, As I already own a K10D, and paid 1/4 of what you want for the LX-D, I don't see why would any one get it.

As far as the ME, or any M series camera for that matter, I never liked them. Found them suffering what I called the M (micro) disease. They were too small, in an era when small bodies were a niche market. and I think that that series of cameras and lenses led pentax down the path of becoming an also ran.

Although they developed some great lenses and cameras later, (I really love my PZ-1) they basically exited the pro market, and lost the prestige of that market and the sponsorship and marketing potential of pro lines.

It will be a long fight back.

[proudtoshootpentax]

I think the name 'LX-D' would be great for an all pro Pentax body. I think what constituted a pro body in the 1980's and what constitutes one now though are very different. Metal body, go; but losing all the automated functions? I wouldn't go for it. Don't get me wrong... manual control is important and I use it all the time. Automation though, particularly for someone dropping four grand, is an absolute must. My dream LX-D would include a color matrix meter, more AF points and a very quiet and powerful AF motor (and of course SDM contacts), a huge and powerful buffer (I love the K10D's 22bit power... lets go even bigger and faster!). Give it a big, comfortable grip. Have it use the K10D batteries if possible, and let it hold at least two. I'd love it if we could get and even larger and brighter 100% viewfinder.
Now you've got a camera people might shell out some dough for! Keep adding those DA* lenses, including some big bad 600mm primes. I think, speaking of cool, it would be great to offer more lenses in a silver color like the old FA* lenses. Canon has the white thing, silver would help them stand out... more of a unique look than just black. Also keeps the heat down in the summer sun.
That's just my dream!

[Kiss]

Originally Posted by proudtoshootpentax

Automation though, particularly for someone dropping four grand, is an absolute must.

I would buy a Leica M8 if it wasnt a rangefinder.. so it is not a must for everyone.

My dream LX-D would include a color matrix meter, more AF points and a very quiet and powerful AF motor (and of course SDM contacts), a huge and powerful buffer (I love the K10D's 22bit power... lets go even bigger and faster!). Give it a big, comfortable grip. Have it use the K10D batteries if possible, and let it hold at least two. I'd love it if we could get and even larger and brighter 100% viewfinder.
Now you've got a camera people might shell out some dough for! Keep adding those DA* lenses, including some big bad 600mm primes. I think, speaking of cool, it would be great to offer more lenses in a silver color like the old FA* lenses. Canon has the white thing, silver would help them stand out... more of a unique look than just black. Also keeps the heat down in the summer sun.
That's just my dream!

Sounds like you want Pentax to be a Canon.. Sorry, i could not resist ;-)

And why more AF points? You still have to chose from them. I think it is better to have one single moveable point, that is like having an infinite number of them.

Well, we all have different taste, and we use cameras in quite different ways. I can fully understand the needs of the photojournalist in a big crowd of many similiar, those who need a fully autometed camera that can be used with one hand holding it way up in the air and shooting away, just hoping to at least get one or two decent shots of the subject. The camera of this poll is not for them. I would only get a picture of the crowd from behind. But thats me, i am the slow one that can walk n tinker around my subject for "ages", hardly ever taking a snapshot. Well, maybe a bit exaggerated, but something like that. I like small cameras that i do not need a backpack to carry the body and three lenses. The wideangle in the left pocket, a 135mm tele in the other, and the camera with a 43mm pancace in the inner pocket. Try that with a K10D and DA lenses.. My old 135mm f2.8 actually fits in the pockets of a medium sized jeans jacket.

Yes, this is a true niche camera, not a camera for everyone. But if 2 out of 100 SLR users are like me, thats a huuughe niche, a lot bigger than the M8 niche and around half the total market share of Pentax. And since a camera like this, "M8 but SLR", cannot be bought for any amount of money today. The first maker to claim this niche will be alone and get 100% of the it, at least in the beginning.

One more thing, this camera is no threat to the current cameras of today since it is way different. So there is no reason to be afraid of it. They can live side by side, as it is a true niche and not just yet another camera like the lineup of other brands.

[proudtoshootpentax]

Originally Posted by Kiss

Sounds like you want Pentax to be a Canon.. Sorry, i could not resist ;-)

I think I could live with Nikon... and I like the 4/3 idea of Olympus (but not the small sensor)... but Canon - NEVER!

I just like the silver lens idea because it seems like a very classic Pentax trademark. Nothing looks sharper than a Limited Prime silver lens on Pentax body, except maybe a silver FA*. Who wants just another black camera and lens? THAT is trying to be like the next guy.

As far as why more AF and more accurate AE, I shoot alot of weddings. There's not always time to double check or manually set for each shot. If I spent the price of a complete system on a single camera, it had better be worth it.

As far as I can see, the camera described above isn't all that different from the new K200D. I have a K100D, it's small, easy and still takes a very nice picture. As for eliminating features like Shutter Priority, I don't know that I've ever thought.. gee, I wish this dial had one less icon!! I do wish all the time though that it didn't have all the dummy modes, but they're not in my way, I just never use them.

I can see where you're going with the concept, but it seems to me the camera you're describing could be build for alot less money. Now if they did build it, I'd say keep the metal body and everything discribed above, add an LCD, AF, and Tv, and you'd have the K1000D?

[d.bradley]

Sure I'll take one, maybe when the price comes down a little

Here's what I would like in such a camera:

- Great sensor (Next gen Foveon, current Samsung, or maybe a new b&w sensor?)
- Shutter, Aperture priority and Manual modes
- one-point AF confirmation (dynamic...that's a cool idea!!)
- Big, bright VF with split and micro prisms
- Area and spot metering
- Exposure compensation
- non-crippled k or m42 mount.
- SR with focal length selector
- weather seals
- easy ISO controls

That's about it. I'm 100% manual focus m42 on my K10D right now...and the camera delivers on most of the above, if you close your eyes and forget about the rest of the gadgets on the body.

The first day I went shopping for a DSLR, I brought in my Pentax ESII and said: "This camera does everything I want it to do. Is there something similarly simple and well built in a DSLR?"

Nope I'm waiting for CZ, Voigtlander, or Cosina to team up with someone and develop a camera like you have described above, maybe with a full frame sensor, but DEFINITELY with a fully compatible m42 mount for open aperture metering and SR with chipped lenses.

[Phil]

I think that I'd rather have a digital Oly OM4t. Whatever turns your crank though.

Cheers,

Phil

[Finn]

But the whole point of a camera like the ME is that it is bombproof, has great lenses, and DOESN'T cost $3800. A ME-D would have to be the same way. Otherwise, I'd much rather buy an ME, get it CLA'd, and still have $3500 left over for film, developing, scanning...

So actually, the camera to which you refer already exists!

[ericc]

I went through this exercise on DPR a few months ago and came up with fairly detailed specs. I think it should list for sub-$1000US.

Recap: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

[Kiss]

Of 32 voters, only 9 (28%) did not like the concept, that means support from 23 (72%) if we disregard the price.

A majority, 17 (53%) liked the concept but thought the price was too high. The rest 6 (19%), would consider it if it could be bought even for this quite high price. Of those in favour, this means that 26% would consider it despite the price, and 74% would consider it at a lower price. So far this is way higher support of the concept than i ever thought. I may be more right about how out of touch the camera makers are today.

Well, the poll is still open.

[Lowell Goudge]

Originally Posted by d.bradley

Sure I'll take one, maybe when the price comes down a little

Here's what I would like in such a camera:

- Great sensor (Next gen Foveon, current Samsung, or maybe a new b&w sensor?)
- Shutter, Aperture priority and Manual modes
- one-point AF confirmation (dynamic...that's a cool idea!!)
- Big, bright VF with split and micro prisms
- Area and spot metering
- Exposure compensation
- non-crippled k or m42 mount.
- SR with focal length selector
- weather seals
- easy ISO controls

That's about it. I'm 100% manual focus m42 on my K10D right now...and the camera delivers on most of the above, if you close your eyes and forget about the rest of the gadgets on the body.

The first day I went shopping for a DSLR, I brought in my Pentax ESII and said: "This camera does everything I want it to do. Is there something similarly simple and well built in a DSLR?"

Nope I'm waiting for CZ, Voigtlander, or Cosina to team up with someone and develop a camera like you have described above, maybe with a full frame sensor, but DEFINITELY with a fully compatible m42 mount for open aperture metering and SR with chipped lenses.

As you state the K10D does most of these points,

aside from
- the desire for a fully compatible M42 screw mount, which not even pentax K bodies offered in 1976 when they came out, and which is not a realistic expectation,
- some software that could make the K10D, or for that matter, any of the DSLRs fully functional with K mount lenses,

the K10D would do all these things and is 1/4 the price or less.

Why do you want to pay that much more?

This would NOT be value for money!

If you consider that it is the cost of the camera that makes the pictures and not the quality, I would suggest going to CaNikon.

You can spend all you want there.

[Kiss]

Originally Posted by Lowell Goudge

- some software that could make the K10D, or for that matter, any of the DSLRs fully functional with K mount lenses,

That is not a software issue, it is a pure mechanical solution required to be coupled with the aperture ring on a manual k-mount lens. That little lever is missing in Pentax DSLR bodies.

Why do you want to pay that much more?

This would NOT be value for money!

If you consider that it is the cost of the camera that makes the pictures and not the quality, I would suggest going to CaNikon.

You can spend all you want there.

I do not think Leica M8 owners would agree with that reasoning tranfered to the rangefinder niche and comparing some cheapo rangefinder with more bells n whistles than the M8, and they are paying 5K USD! The same is true in this case.

The current DSLR lineup is downright clumsy cameras to my taste. Just try to fit a K10D with a lens monted on in the inner pocket of your jacket.. I also regard all those buttons as pure clutter, i do not want it. And the useless keyhole called viewfinder, its a joke. I want a clean, compact, really high quality, and very basic single lens reflex digital camera, ment to be used manually with manual lenses. I would still be prepared to pay 4K if there was no autofocus, but i would not mind it if it was done in an unitrusive way.

Some people get even offended by my thoughts, and even starting to call me names. But how can this be a threat to them? Some try to find technical reasons, but there is no such reasons. Take away the grip, the flash and the display and all those buttons on the back, and you will get a camera that is almost as thin as those old manual cameras. And remember, the success of SLR was once up on a time thet they where compact. But a top of line with a standard zoom is bigger than some mediumformats today, especially with a battery grip.

But i am also fully aware that what i want is a niche, just like M8. Not everyone would like a camera like that, it would not fit their style of shooting and lots of other arguments regarding automation. The niche aspect is also the reason that the price can be high, and since it is a niche it is not a threat to current type of cameras.

There are obviously quite many people that want a camera like this, probably a lot more than M8 buyers, but still a niche. But there is no such camera to buy, for any money. So, there is a lunch to be eaten here, a whole world market niche to claim. The first one will also be alone and get 100% of it. Pentax is the best positioned maker due to the K-mount and all those lenses where some even is manufactured today, add to this the FA Limiteds.

Price is almost of no issue here. And CaNikon is even further away from this niche.

BTW.
Those old ME or LX do fit the inner pocket of my medium sized jacket, but they are not digital.

[Lowell Goudge]

Originally Posted by Kiss

That is not a software issue, it is a pure mechanical solution required to be coupled with the aperture ring on a manual k-mount lens. That little lever is missing in Pentax DSLR bodies.

while the lever is missing, full auto function could be achieved using the thumbwheel controls like is done on the KA mount lenses, just by being able to feed the camera the min and max apature. After all, that is all the first 6 contacts do on the present KAF mount lenses

I do not think Leica M8 owners would agree with that reasoning tranfered to the rangefinder niche and comparing some cheapo rangefinder with more bells n whistles than the M8, and they are paying 5K USD! The same is true in this case.

cant comment

The current DSLR lineup is downright clumsy cameras to my taste. Just try to fit a K10D with a lens monted on in the inner pocket of your jacket..

what about the 40mm pancake lens?

I also regard all those buttons as pure clutter, i do not want it. And the useless keyhole called viewfinder, its a joke. I want a clean, compact, really high quality, and very basic single lens reflex digital camera, ment to be used manually with manual lenses. I would still be prepared to pay 4K if there was no autofocus, but i would not mind it if it was done in an unitrusive way.

Some people get even offended by my thoughts, and even starting to call me names. But how can this be a threat to them? Some try to find technical reasons, but there is no such reasons. Take away the grip, the flash and the display and all those buttons on the back, and you will get a camera that is almost as thin as those old manual cameras. And remember, the success of SLR was once up on a time thet they where compact. But a top of line with a standard zoom is bigger than some mediumformats today, especially with a battery grip.

But i am also fully aware that what i want is a niche, just like M8. Not everyone would like a camera like that, it would not fit their style of shooting and lots of other arguments regarding automation. The niche aspect is also the reason that the price can be high, and since it is a niche it is not a threat to current type of cameras.

There are obviously quite many people that want a camera like this, probably a lot more than M8 buyers, but still a niche. But there is no such camera to buy, for any money. So, there is a lunch to be eaten here, a whole world market niche to claim. The first one will also be alone and get 100% of it. Pentax is the best positioned maker due to the K-mount and all those lenses where some even is manufactured today, add to this the FA Limiteds.

Price is almost of no issue here. And CaNikon is even further away from this niche.

what you really want is not an SLR but an interchangeable lens P&S with some well designed pancake lenses

BTW.
Those old ME or LX do fit the inner pocket of my medium sized jacket, but they are not digital.

yes but only with the pancake lens. Just put a 200mm on it, and then try.