Vertical lines still an issue

Christian · 05-20-2007, 05:04 AM

Hi

I've used my k10D 3 times now in dark situations. Each time I've had vertical lines appear (mainly on longer exposures). I don't mind noise as that's what I was expecting. But these lines are driving me mad. As you can only see it in dark areas, when taking shots of black people in same situation... you get the lines going down their face!!!! No good...

Here's a shot from last night at Great Escape festival in Brighton that demonstrates the lines clearly. I thought this was supposed to be fixed in firmware!!!???

roscot · 05-20-2007, 06:35 AM

Hi Christian,
Sorry to tell you this. Those lines are the dreaded VPN (vertical pattern noise) that seems to be fairly common in some K10D shots.

When it appears, it is common in under exposed areas of an image. I've seen it once in awhile on mine, but it has not been that severe or that often.

In your example image, a little selective Noise Ninja, or Neat Image would probably take care of it. When it appears on a main subject, (peoples faces), not much you can do.

This has not yet been addressed by Pentax. Not every camera, or user gets VPN. There has been discussion and arguments galore on this subject. No one knows for sure whether it can be fixed in a firmware update. It may be a hardware issue.

Not that this will make you feel any better, but Nikon had a similar issue with the D200 when it came out.

carpents · 05-20-2007, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Christian

I thought this was supposed to be fixed in firmware!!!???

No, the firmware fixed a specific banding from long exposures. Those were very noticeable green lines.

Your shot is showing VPN (vertical patterned noise). While some believe you are simply imagining something invented by the Internet, there are others of us who see this clearly and hate it as much as you. There are some noise-reducing tools that seem to perform well against what you're seeing. There was a series of posts over at the Bad Forum about a shareware Photoshop plug-in...sorry I don't have a link. Maybe someone else knows what I'm talking about?

Christian · 05-20-2007, 07:14 AM

Hi, Thanks for your replies. Yes I read about it in the early D200 models. They seemed to fix that problem and make those early buyers good by fixing/replacing their machines. If it's not present in every K10D produced maybe I was unlucky?? I'd say it's definitely a fault and Pentax should either fix it and give users the option to swap their cameras for a new one or give customers their money back.

The banding is actually worse in the original image than this jpeg saved out for the forum. This is a problem to me as I do a lot of gig photography... so far my old D50 is outperfoming the K10D in terms of focus accuracy and this gawd damn banding... Such a shame cos I love actually using the camera :-(

carpents · 05-20-2007, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Christian

Hi, Thanks for your replies. Yes I read about it in the early D200 models. They seemed to fix that problem and make those early buyers good by fixing/replacing their machines. If it's not present in every K10D produced maybe I was unlucky?? I'd say it's definitely a fault and Pentax should either fix it and give users the option to swap their cameras for a new one or give customers their money back.

The banding is actually worse in the original image than this jpeg saved out for the forum. This is a problem to me as I do a lot of gig photography... so far my old D50 is outperfoming the K10D in terms of focus accuracy and this gawd damn banding... Such a shame cos I love actually using the camera :-(

The D200 banding was quite different. The K10 exhibits a 'normal' VPN - one that all digital sensors have - but due to a flaw in the camera it is more exaggerated than it should be. There is a very knowledgeable poster (GordonBGood) on the Bad Forum who surmises that the problem is probably hardware related (it is beyond my expertise to fully analyze) and without extensive additional processing (read: slower shooting) it can't be fixed via firmware.

Sorry.

kenyee · 05-20-2007, 09:12 AM

There have been long dpreview threads on this. I'd suggest you contact Pentax support and pester the crap out of them. I've already sent them a link to Gordon's comments on it. I also think it's a hardware issue, along w/ the color moire pattern or x-mas tree lights problem found in the imaging resource review and photozone review. Note that this happens to some degree w/ all cameras (though it sounds like your D50 doesn't have this problem?), but on the K10D, it lowers the dynamic range quite a bit so the built-in 22-bit A/D convertors can't be used to full effect :-(

There are tools that help this such as: Astronomy Tools Action Set by ProDigital Software
(the guy's supposed to add HPN/VPN correction in dslr tools 1.6)

Christian · 05-20-2007, 09:34 AM

Thanks for the info. I need to prob check all exif details as it happens so randomly... even if I take say 3 shots the same... only 1 of them might have it... strange... unfortunately it's happened on what would have been a couple of favourite shots :-(

RiceHigh · 05-20-2007, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Christian

Hi

I've used my k10D 3 times now in dark situations. Each time I've had vertical lines appear (mainly on longer exposures). I don't mind noise as that's what I was expecting. But these lines are driving me mad. As you can only see it in dark areas, when taking shots of black people in same situation... you get the lines going down their face!!!! No good...

Here's a shot from last night at Great Escape festival in Brighton that demonstrates the lines clearly. I thought this was supposed to be fixed in firmware!!!???

Chris, here are some of my answers to your faced problem and questions. I have no full and definite answers to all these related bandings and pattern noise issues, though. Hope this helps a bit:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: VPN and HPN / Bandings of the K10D

**Ole** · 05-20-2007, 10:35 PM

I see similar, but horizontal banding quite often. I have communicated this to Pentax USA but have had no response so far.

It is visible on the mountain in this shot:

http://www.pentaxforums.com/gallery/...5k_wbcx800.jpg

Christian · 05-21-2007, 03:35 AM

Oh Christ... I was going to get the grip for shooting gigs as it'll be easier... but now I hear I'll get horizontal banding as well!!!!??

I'm not underexposing or anything like that. Seems to be very random... so maybe it is interference that does it. Either way I think a CMOS sensor may have been a wiser choice.

I am planning on getting a flash for concerts but I'll still need to be able to shoot without (as some venues won't allow flash).

kenyee · 05-21-2007, 08:08 AM

Works fine for daylight photos apparently, but I wouldn't use it for your club gigs.

If you're on good terms w/ the store you bought the K10D from, you might want to see if you can borrow their demo for a gig to see if it's better than yours. You might have one that is worse than normal. And by all means, gripe to Pentax...the squeaky wheel gets the...