K-5 bounce flash over exposure with response from Metz

efkelly · 03-14-2011, 10:22 AM

I have been having trouble with the K-5 when I bounce the flash. It seems to overexpose quite a bit (1 stop or more depending upon situation). I have posted this topic a few times on this forum and another. The flash that I have been using is a Metz 50 af-1. I have tried it on 4 other k-5 bodies and the problem does not exist on my K-r. It happens when the camera is on any mode and the ISO is above 100. I typically shoot at ISO's above 100 at weddings with the camera on manual f5, 1/50th to conserve flash power and to pull in more ambient light. I was beginning to think that it might be a Metz problem, but I contacted Metz and this is their response:

Dear Mr Kelly,
Thank you for your e-mail enquiry of 11 March 2011.
We regret the trouble that you have with your flash unit 50 AF-1 and your camera Pentax K-5.
Please be informed, in our company we tested the digital camera "Pentax K-5" (firmware version 1.01 and 1.02) with flash units of our product range and also original Pentax flash units "Pentax AF-540FGZ" and "Pentax AF-360FGZ" and compared the results of images. The results are identical because the camera determines the intensity of flash light.
However, we found also out by our tests that the precision of Pentax digital camera's "Pentax K-5" P-TTL flash control is not as precise as like with other Pentax digital camera.

Please see:
http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=37036542
http://dp-master1.dpreview.com/...ms/read.asp?forum=1036&message=37196234
http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=37065884
We recommend you to take also pictures with an original Pentax flash unit at your photo dealers. Then you will see whether the problem is caused by the camera itself or by your flash unit.

We hope this information has been of help for you and remain
With kind regards

Wolfgang Becker
Technical Support

I decided to take some shots with my K-5 and K-r so that people can see if they have the same issue. All my shots were with the camera on Manual, f5, 1/50 sec., and at ISO 100, 200, 400, and 800 with the flash on PTTL and strait up bounced. The lens used was a DA* 16-50 with the lens at 35mm and I was about 5 feet away. The scene was in the -EV as well (at least -1 stop with ISO 800 selected). Let me know what you think. Oh ya, I have the newest firmware in my camera 1.03.

The K-5-
f5, 1/50th, ISO 100

f5, 1/50th, ISO 200

f5, 1/50th, ISO 400

f5, 1/50th, ISO 800

The K-r
f5, 1/50th, ISO 100

f5, 1/50th, ISO 200

f5, 1/50th, ISO 400

f5, 1/50th, ISO 800

Thank you...

Last edited by efkelly; 03-14-2011 at 02:31 PM.

WerTicus · 03-14-2011, 10:33 AM

Yeah this is a known issue... In my testing I have found that putting the flash not fully 'up' i.e. at 170 and not 180 degree's fixes the issue.

efkelly · 03-14-2011, 11:00 AM

Thats funny. I just tried to lower the flash head (i.e. not 90 degrees but 80 or 70) and the same problem exists. Does anyone know why my pictures are not showing up from my album? Thanks,

Eric

raphtze · 03-14-2011, 12:33 PM

what's maddening is that sometimes, flash pictures come out perfect. when it's perfect, it looks super fantastic. what i've done is to do a -1 EV when using my flash--that's what everyone suggests. so if pics do come out darker.....a little bit of PP helps to recover the image. i know it's not ideal, but i'm working around the issue until something definitive comes out.

-raph

efkelly · 03-14-2011, 02:08 PM

I find that it overexposes on every shot. I have not found that they come out perfect. The only time is when the ISO is 80 or 100 or when I am shooting with the flash direct, bounced off a wall in another direction. Just putting -1 in doesn't help for me because at a wedding I will go from bounce to direct and then have to change EV way too much which is slow and slow at a wedding = no good...

Originally posted by raphtze

what's maddening is that sometimes, flash pictures come out perfect. when it's perfect, it looks super fantastic. what i've done is to do a -1 EV when using my flash--that's what everyone suggests. so if pics do come out darker.....a little bit of PP helps to recover the image. i know it's not ideal, but i'm working around the issue until something definitive comes out.

-raph

snofox · 03-14-2011, 04:35 PM

Pentax said they were working on this issue a couple of months ago, IIRC. Given their track record with the sensor stains and the FF issues in low light, I expect a firmware fix soon. It appears there are problems with the Pentax Ring Flash also, which I use a lot. It's the only thing keeping me from ordering a K5 at the moment.

efkelly · 03-14-2011, 04:50 PM

Pentax said they were? I have sent my camera in to have this issue fixed and they sent me a new one (although I had sensor stains apparently as well). I have yet to find anywhere posted that they were working on a fix. Pentax USA has said on the phone that it is unaware of the issue. Do you have any link or documentation stating this? Thanks-

Eric

Originally posted by snofox

Pentax said they were working on this issue a couple of months ago, IIRC. Given their track record with the sensor stains and the FF issues in low light, I expect a firmware fix soon. It appears there are problems with the Pentax Ring Flash also, which I use a lot. It's the only thing keeping me from ordering a K5 at the moment.

jrforman · 03-14-2011, 06:01 PM

OMG another Pentax user that is an acupuncturist? I thought I was the only one...

But on topic. I have a Metz 58-AF1. I never use it in direct mode but do use it a lot in bounced (usually off a side wall, hardly ever overhead because I just don't like the way it looks). I use the camera only in manual mode and usually dial in a FEC of -1. I get consistent results as long as I don't get too close to my subject and go over the minimum (not maximum) flash distance for the ISO I'm shooting. I will have some picts of my grandson's 3rd birthday here - I used flash in all except for a few shots that are obvious. MobileMe Gallery
These picts will be up for a couple months, so if you find this in more than that, don't be alarmed they aren't there.

I would also remind everyone that you still need to compensate for scenes that are primarily white or black with E.C. just like you would do a normal shot. I have been guilty of that in the past.

snofox · 03-14-2011, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by jrforman

OMG another Pentax user that is an acupuncturist? I thought I was the only one...

I don't get the reference. What has my post to do with acupuncture?

snofox · 03-14-2011, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by efkelly

Pentax said they were? I have sent my camera in to have this issue fixed and they sent me a new one (although I had sensor stains apparently as well). I have yet to find anywhere posted that they were working on a fix.
Eric

I read it on one of the earlier threads on the flash issue in this forum. You can probably find it by doing a search.

glanglois · 03-14-2011, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by snofox

I don't get the reference. What has my post to do with acupuncture?

Your ability to get right to the point.

Sorry, must have been that second Scotch ale

twitch · 03-14-2011, 07:26 PM

It's very disappointing that this issue still has not been solved. I shoot a vey high proportion of my photos with bounced flash and usually at ISO400+. This problem is enough for me to not purchase the K-5 until it is sorted out. I can't understand how it could be so hard to solve, no other recent camera has this issue, my K-x is terrfic using pTTL

snofox · 03-14-2011, 07:28 PM

efkelly, I think the link you need is here https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/119808-k-5-flash.html. And here is another https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/119630-my-2-days-old-k5-faulty.html

There are other threads on the issue just as long. I think it was someone from Europe who said that he talked with Pentax about the issue and was told that a firmware fix was forthcoming.

jrforman · 03-14-2011, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by snofox

I don't get the reference. What has my post to do with acupuncture?

It was directed at efkelly. Thats an acupuncture model in his posted pictures.....

snofox · 03-14-2011, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by jrforman

It was directed at efkelly. Thats an acupuncture model in his posted pictures.....

I guess I missed the point!!!

03-14-2011, 10:22 AM	#1
efkelly Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Haven, CT Photos: Albums Posts: 91	K-5 bounce flash over exposure with response from Metz I have been having trouble with the K-5 when I bounce the flash. It seems to overexpose quite a bit (1 stop or more depending upon situation). I have posted this topic a few times on this forum and another. The flash that I have been using is a Metz 50 af-1. I have tried it on 4 other k-5 bodies and the problem does not exist on my K-r. It happens when the camera is on any mode and the ISO is above 100. I typically shoot at ISO's above 100 at weddings with the camera on manual f5, 1/50th to conserve flash power and to pull in more ambient light. I was beginning to think that it might be a Metz problem, but I contacted Metz and this is their response: Dear Mr Kelly, Thank you for your e-mail enquiry of 11 March 2011. We regret the trouble that you have with your flash unit 50 AF-1 and your camera Pentax K-5. Please be informed, in our company we tested the digital camera "Pentax K-5" (firmware version 1.01 and 1.02) with flash units of our product range and also original Pentax flash units "Pentax AF-540FGZ" and "Pentax AF-360FGZ" and compared the results of images. The results are identical because the camera determines the intensity of flash light. However, we found also out by our tests that the precision of Pentax digital camera's "Pentax K-5" P-TTL flash control is not as precise as like with other Pentax digital camera. Please see: http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=37036542 http://dp-master1.dpreview.com/...ms/read.asp?forum=1036&message=37196234 http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=37065884 We recommend you to take also pictures with an original Pentax flash unit at your photo dealers. Then you will see whether the problem is caused by the camera itself or by your flash unit. We hope this information has been of help for you and remain With kind regards Wolfgang Becker Technical Support I decided to take some shots with my K-5 and K-r so that people can see if they have the same issue. All my shots were with the camera on Manual, f5, 1/50 sec., and at ISO 100, 200, 400, and 800 with the flash on PTTL and strait up bounced. The lens used was a DA* 16-50 with the lens at 35mm and I was about 5 feet away. The scene was in the -EV as well (at least -1 stop with ISO 800 selected). Let me know what you think. Oh ya, I have the newest firmware in my camera 1.03. The K-5- f5, 1/50th, ISO 100 f5, 1/50th, ISO 200 f5, 1/50th, ISO 400 f5, 1/50th, ISO 800 The K-r f5, 1/50th, ISO 100 f5, 1/50th, ISO 200 f5, 1/50th, ISO 400 f5, 1/50th, ISO 800 Thank you... Last edited by efkelly; 03-14-2011 at 02:31 PM.

03-14-2011, 02:08 PM	#5
efkelly Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Haven, CT Photos: Albums Posts: 91 Original Poster	Not for me... I find that it overexposes on every shot. I have not found that they come out perfect. The only time is when the ISO is 80 or 100 or when I am shooting with the flash direct, bounced off a wall in another direction. Just putting -1 in doesn't help for me because at a wedding I will go from bounce to direct and then have to change EV way too much which is slow and slow at a wedding = no good... Originally posted by raphtze what's maddening is that sometimes, flash pictures come out perfect. when it's perfect, it looks super fantastic. what i've done is to do a -1 EV when using my flash--that's what everyone suggests. so if pics do come out darker.....a little bit of PP helps to recover the image. i know it's not ideal, but i'm working around the issue until something definitive comes out. -raph

03-14-2011, 04:50 PM	#7
efkelly Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Haven, CT Photos: Albums Posts: 91 Original Poster	They did Pentax said they were? I have sent my camera in to have this issue fixed and they sent me a new one (although I had sensor stains apparently as well). I have yet to find anywhere posted that they were working on a fix. Pentax USA has said on the phone that it is unaware of the issue. Do you have any link or documentation stating this? Thanks- Eric Originally posted by snofox Pentax said they were working on this issue a couple of months ago, IIRC. Given their track record with the sensor stains and the FF issues in low light, I expect a firmware fix soon. It appears there are problems with the Pentax Ring Flash also, which I use a lot. It's the only thing keeping me from ordering a K5 at the moment.

03-14-2011, 07:28 PM	#13
snofox Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Fredericton New Brunswick Canada Photos: Albums Posts: 334	efkelly, I think the link you need is here https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/119808-k-5-flash.html. And here is another https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5-forum/119630-my-2-days-old-k5-faulty.html There are other threads on the issue just as long. I think it was someone from Europe who said that he talked with Pentax about the issue and was told that a firmware fix was forthcoming. Last edited by snofox; 03-14-2011 at 07:34 PM.

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03-14-2011, 10:33 AM	#2
WerTicus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Perth Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,514	Yeah this is a known issue... In my testing I have found that putting the flash not fully 'up' i.e. at 170 and not 180 degree's fixes the issue.

03-14-2011, 11:00 AM	#3
efkelly Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Haven, CT Photos: Albums Posts: 91 Original Poster	Thats funny. I just tried to lower the flash head (i.e. not 90 degrees but 80 or 70) and the same problem exists. Does anyone know why my pictures are not showing up from my album? Thanks, Eric

03-14-2011, 12:33 PM	#4
raphtze Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 136	what's maddening is that sometimes, flash pictures come out perfect. when it's perfect, it looks super fantastic. what i've done is to do a -1 EV when using my flash--that's what everyone suggests. so if pics do come out darker.....a little bit of PP helps to recover the image. i know it's not ideal, but i'm working around the issue until something definitive comes out. -raph

03-14-2011, 04:35 PM	#6
snofox Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Fredericton New Brunswick Canada Photos: Albums Posts: 334	Pentax said they were working on this issue a couple of months ago, IIRC. Given their track record with the sensor stains and the FF issues in low light, I expect a firmware fix soon. It appears there are problems with the Pentax Ring Flash also, which I use a lot. It's the only thing keeping me from ordering a K5 at the moment.

03-14-2011, 06:01 PM	#8
jrforman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 202	OMG another Pentax user that is an acupuncturist? I thought I was the only one... But on topic. I have a Metz 58-AF1. I never use it in direct mode but do use it a lot in bounced (usually off a side wall, hardly ever overhead because I just don't like the way it looks). I use the camera only in manual mode and usually dial in a FEC of -1. I get consistent results as long as I don't get too close to my subject and go over the minimum (not maximum) flash distance for the ISO I'm shooting. I will have some picts of my grandson's 3rd birthday here - I used flash in all except for a few shots that are obvious. MobileMe Gallery These picts will be up for a couple months, so if you find this in more than that, don't be alarmed they aren't there. I would also remind everyone that you still need to compensate for scenes that are primarily white or black with E.C. just like you would do a normal shot. I have been guilty of that in the past.

03-14-2011, 07:16 PM	#9
snofox Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Fredericton New Brunswick Canada Photos: Albums Posts: 334	Originally posted by jrforman OMG another Pentax user that is an acupuncturist? I thought I was the only one... I don't get the reference. What has my post to do with acupuncture?

03-14-2011, 07:18 PM	#10
snofox Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Fredericton New Brunswick Canada Photos: Albums Posts: 334	Originally posted by efkelly Pentax said they were? I have sent my camera in to have this issue fixed and they sent me a new one (although I had sensor stains apparently as well). I have yet to find anywhere posted that they were working on a fix. Eric I read it on one of the earlier threads on the flash issue in this forum. You can probably find it by doing a search.

03-14-2011, 07:22 PM	#11
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	Originally posted by snofox I don't get the reference. What has my post to do with acupuncture? Your ability to get right to the point. Sorry, must have been that second Scotch ale

03-14-2011, 07:26 PM	#12
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	It's very disappointing that this issue still has not been solved. I shoot a vey high proportion of my photos with bounced flash and usually at ISO400+. This problem is enough for me to not purchase the K-5 until it is sorted out. I can't understand how it could be so hard to solve, no other recent camera has this issue, my K-x is terrfic using pTTL

03-14-2011, 07:58 PM	#14
jrforman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 202	Originally posted by snofox I don't get the reference. What has my post to do with acupuncture? It was directed at efkelly. Thats an acupuncture model in his posted pictures.....

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03-14-2011, 08:07 PM	#15
snofox Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Fredericton New Brunswick Canada Photos: Albums Posts: 334	Originally posted by jrforman It was directed at efkelly. Thats an acupuncture model in his posted pictures..... I guess I missed the point!!!