K200D high ISO IQ

CSpronken · 12-11-2007, 01:47 PM

We had several threads about the K20D sensor and also some rumours about 10mp for the K200D. Now I'm not fishing for NDA covered info, but could some people in the know tell us potential K200D buyers anything that would indicate that high ISO performance will be up the mark with the K100D and the K20D? I think Benjamin hinted that it was not just a simple Sony 10mp swap job, but can't remember for sure.

thibs · 12-11-2007, 02:12 PM

Got that hint too but it might be that very Soyn 10Mp sensor with added e.g. LiveView for example.

I would not expect a big difference in IQ going from K10D to K200D.

RMabo · 12-12-2007, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by CSpronken

We had several threads about the K20D sensor and also some rumours about 10mp for the K200D. Now I'm not fishing for NDA covered info, but could some people in the know tell us potential K200D buyers anything that would indicate that high ISO performance will be up the mark with the K100D and the K20D?

The "K200D" (or whatever it will be called) can have different software tweaks and different applied software based noise reduction, but it is still the same Sony 10Mp so not much can be done. It may be a bit better than the K10D, but don't expect miracles.

The new "K20D" (or whatever it will be called) uses new technology, so the old Sony 10Mp can't match it.

mattdm · 12-12-2007, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by RMabo

The "K200D" (or whatever it will be called) can have different software tweaks and different applied software based noise reduction, but it is still the same Sony 10Mp so not much can be done. It may be a bit better than the K10D, but don't expect miracles.

I've seen no well-sourced information confirming that the old Sony sensor will be used. People are just assuming that based on the "K200 = stripped-down K10" theory. That theory could be true, but I think it'd be bad news for Pentax, which needs to keep up innovation at the entry level pricepoint too.

RMabo · 12-12-2007, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by mattdm

I've seen no well-sourced information confirming that the old Sony sensor will be used. People are just assuming that based on the "K200 = stripped-down K10" theory. That theory could be true, but I think it'd be bad news for Pentax, which needs to keep up innovation at the entry level pricepoint too.

The new replacement/upgrade of the K100D is indeed a mixture of both the K10D and K100D, but it also features new things not found in the K10D and K100D. This mix makes the new model *very competetive* to EOS 400D and Olympus E-510.

The Sony 10Mp is inexpensive enough to be used in the new entry level. It is not possible to give the K100D replacement/upgrade the newly developed Pentax CMOS, simply because it is far too expensive and advanced for this price point. With the Pentax sensor the K100D replacement/upgrade would be more expensive than the K10D!

JMS · 12-12-2007, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by RMabo

The new replacement/upgrade of the K100D is indeed a mixture of both the K10D and K100D, but it also features new things not found in the K10D and K100D. This mix makes the new model *very competetive* to EOS 400D and Olympus E-510.

The Sony 10Mp is inexpensive enough to be used in the new entry level. It is not possible to give the K100D replacement/upgrade the newly developed Pentax CMOS, simply because it is far too expensive and advanced for this price point. With the Pentax sensor the K100D replacement/upgrade would be more expensive than the K10D!

Are we talking ultrasonic dust removal, higher framerate and burst capacity, with a possibility of panning SR and a dedicated rechareable battery?

nathancombs · 12-12-2007, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by JMS

Are we talking ultrasonic dust removal, higher framerate and burst capacity, with a possibility of panning SR and a dedicated rechareable battery?

call me wheard i do like the AA batereas, it is good to know if i for get to garge the bat in the K10D or some thing happens i can run to any store and get them for my K100D and not miss a photo. i also like the bat that the K10 has but i think it is good to have a plan B if some thing gos rong.

i have for got to recharge my baterys before and it was nice to be able to take the bats out of my scaner and put them in my camera

CSpronken · 12-12-2007, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by mattdm

I've seen no well-sourced information confirming that the old Sony sensor will be used. People are just assuming that based on the "K200 = stripped-down K10" theory. That theory could be true, but I think it'd be bad news for Pentax, which needs to keep up innovation at the entry level pricepoint too.

Originally Posted by RMabo

The new replacement/upgrade of the K100D is indeed a mixture of both the K10D and K100D, but it also features new things not found in the K10D and K100D. This mix makes the new model *very competetive* to EOS 400D and Olympus E-510.

The Sony 10Mp is inexpensive enough to be used in the new entry level. It is not possible to give the K100D replacement/upgrade the newly developed Pentax CMOS, simply because it is far too expensive and advanced for this price point. With the Pentax sensor the K100D replacement/upgrade would be more expensive than the K10D!

If high ISO performance of the K100D successor is not going to be equal to the K100D and "K20D" I think at least they should give people the option of the old 6mp sensor, if that is still possible by that time (production wise). So something like the Nikon route with the D40 and D40x. The "old" 10mp sensor doesn't have the resolution of the new one nor the high ISO of the new and 6mp one, so ideally they would have a more expensive version with the new sensor and a "real" successor with the old 6mp one. The 10mp sensor was the very reason for me not to buy the K10D, I hope they won't make it the only option below the "K20D" IF high ISO IQ is not improved.

RMabo · 12-12-2007, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by JMS

Are we talking ultrasonic dust removal, higher framerate and burst capacity, with a possibility of panning SR and a dedicated rechareable battery?

Nope.
Still AA batteries. (Pentax actually sees this as an advantage!)
Image processing pipeline from the K10D (same sensor and fast image processing), should mean faster response, less shutter lag, and more images in the buffer before it is filled up.
More options to the image settings allows for more tweakability of the image in-camera (similar to the K10D replacement, but without the in-camera RAW processing).
Image quality is improved from the K10D thank's to the new software. It may not affect the noise at high ISO so much, but it affects other things that means a higher quality image.
Image quality is much more than just the level of the noise at ISO 1600.

mattdm · 12-12-2007, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by RMabo

The new replacement/upgrade of the K100D is indeed a mixture of both the K10D and K100D, but it also features new things not found in the K10D and K100D. This mix makes the new model *very competetive* to EOS 400D and Olympus E-510.

Vague enough that it's probably true.

The Sony 10Mp is inexpensive enough to be used in the new entry level. It is not possible to give the K100D replacement/upgrade the newly developed Pentax CMOS, simply because it is far too expensive and advanced for this price point. With the Pentax sensor the K100D replacement/upgrade would be more expensive than the K10D!

It's not necessarily the rumored new Pentax sensor either.

RMabo · 12-12-2007, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by CSpronken

If high ISO performance of the K100D successor is not going to be equal to the K100D and "K20D"

It is not possible to implement Pentax new technology for high ISO images to the Sony 10Mp sensor, or any other sensor from Sony. This technology is on the sensor itself, so it must be designed for it from the start.

On the K10D replacement, Pentax combines the new sensor technology with a new generation of software based noise reduction. I do expect this new generation of NR coming to the K100D replacement, but it can't do miracles because of limitations in the Sony sensors.

Now, image quality is much more than just noise levels at ISO 1600. Pentax has neat tricks here (also in the K10D replacement) which - on paper - means that the K100D replacement has the chance of higher overall image quality than the K10D. How those tricks will actually perform, that is something we will see in just a few weeks I hope. It is too early to tell right now.

But again, don't expect miracles.

RMabo · 12-12-2007, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by mattdm

It's not necessarily the rumored new Pentax sensor either.

The most cost-efficient is to "take over" the K10D image processing and enhancing the software, it's a very logical thing to do. Developing an image processing pipeline that only lasted for a year and a half (K10D) is too expensive. I believe we will se this trend in the future too. New technology entering the top-models, then after a year or two some of this technology will be implemented in the entry level models.

lol101 · 12-12-2007, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by RMabo

Nope.
Still AA batteries. (Pentax actually sees this as an advantage!)
Image processing pipeline from the K10D (same sensor and fast image processing), should mean faster response, less shutter lag, and more images in the buffer before it is filled up.
More options to the image settings allows for more tweakability of the image in-camera (similar to the K10D replacement, but without the in-camera RAW processing).
Image quality is improved from the K10D thank's to the new software. It may not affect the noise at high ISO so much, but it affects other things that means a higher quality image.
Image quality is much more than just the level of the noise at ISO 1600.

Excellent news!

Of course, that means a firmware update for the ol'K10 since they'll share the same hardware...

RMabo · 12-12-2007, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by lol101

Of course, that means a firmware update for the ol'K10 since they'll share the same hardware...

It has been a long ongoing rumour that Pentax will issue a new firmware upgrade for the K10D, and I believe it will be released after the new cameras are released on the market. Sometime spring 2008.
But, I do expect the K100D replacement to feature updated code for the PRIME - image processor and if this is hard-coded into the processor this can't be updated via new firmware. I don't know. I believe Pentax will update what they can for the K10D, but some things may simply not be possible.

CSpronken · 12-12-2007, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by RMabo

It is not possible to implement Pentax new technology for high ISO images to the Sony 10Mp sensor, or any other sensor from Sony. This technology is on the sensor itself, so it must be designed for it from the start.

On the K10D replacement, Pentax combines the new sensor technology with a new generation of software based noise reduction. I do expect this new generation of NR coming to the K100D replacement, but it can't do miracles because of limitations in the Sony sensors.

Yes, I was afraid of that. That's why I suggested the use of the 6mp sensor which seems to perform better noise wise at higher IQ in the first place and perhaps a model with the new 14mp sensor, but at a significantly elevated price between D40x and D80, say current K10D territory. Perhaps live view requires modifications to the 6mp to the sensor that Sony isn't willing to do?

I could also see Pentax introducing the "K20D" and "K200D" and keep the K100DS running for quite a bit longer. Problem is there's little incentive for all the *ist and K110D/K100D owners to upgrade to the K100DS and by that time the (perceived) disadvantage of lack of speed may start to degrade it's attractiveness also for first time DSLR buyers, margins would crumble to stay in the game.

Originally Posted by RMabo

Now, image quality is much more than just noise levels at ISO 1600. Pentax has neat tricks here (also in the K10D replacement) which - on paper - means that the K100D replacement has the chance of higher overall image quality than the K10D. How those tricks will actually perform, that is something we will see in just a few weeks I hope. It is too early to tell right now.

But again, don't expect miracles.

I agree with your IQ remarks about more than just noise. We'll see how it goes, thanks for shedding some light on the issue.

Originally Posted by RMabo

The most cost-efficient is to "take over" the K10D image processing and enhancing the software, it's a very logical thing to do. Developing an image processing pipeline that only lasted for a year and a half (K10D) is too expensive. I believe we will se this trend in the future too. New technology entering the top-models, then after a year or two some of this technology will be implemented in the entry level models.

Yes, see your point, although the cost of both the "6mp pipeline" as well as the "10mp pipeline" which ever you use are already made now, so using either would not in- or decrease cost because of that. The extra cost of the new 14mp sensor you could offset by being able to ask a higher price and have the 6mp as cheaper alternative. The advantage being, overall higher high ISO IQ and more resolution and price choice for the customer.