My 2500 word essay on the K20D - Page 9

philmorley · 01-23-2008, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by codiac2600

I'm not understanding how some people can call this a light upgrade to the K10D...

We have a totally redesigned sensor that no one else has, we have a new screen that no one has, we have a image engine that no one has, we have added live view, we still have weather sealing that the 40D still doesn't have, the only things we do not have is the AF system of the Canon/Nikon cameras?

Honestly, Pentax has things nobody else in the market has and they have things we don't have. Canon has the best AF because thats what the devoted all their time and money into when they went to an AF camera.

Hi,

thanks for the writeup.

personally my biggest disappointment is that the 60-250 is pushed back. There still is nothing in that class.

The new camera looks good, I can't see why it is a 'bomb' though and I see why people are disappointed it certainly had an awful lot of hype to live up to.

Here is my personal thoughts

(like they mean anything in whole grand scheme of things)

More megapixels -> great
less noise -> even greater

improved image quality -> greater still
quieter -> also great

pc sync port -> great but no increase in sync speed, nothing else really new as far as flash / lighting system goes, wireless still at 1/180 max if lucky

higher res screen -> nice but for me not a deal maker / breaker.

3 fps -> personally I dont use it a lot, but when I do the faster the better but I can live with 3. But a LOT of people wanted faster than this and I see that as big deterrent to sales

no change in af system -> again a lot of people unhappy with af speed etc. -> no change in number of af points etc etc

new dust control -> umm sorry I dont see the big deal, I cleaned the ds about once a month, the k10 about every 2 months takes about 1 minute if that.

20fps at 1.6mp -> does this have any value?? sorry I really cant see the value in this, If I was happy with 1.6mp then I'd be just as happy with video from one of my kids p&s. Personally this one is a gimmick and a pretty lame one at that, put it on an entry level camera maybe.

Do the picture style settings have any effect in raw? if not then like the k10's picture I dont see any value. Personally get the most perfect raw shot then convert in ps where I can fine tune easy personally its better than trying to do it camera. Sorry seems like an gimmick.

Live view -> There are occassions when I would love it, but without af ??? its functionality is very significantly reduced. hmm... I really couldn't see anyone putting out a camera with live view that doesn't autofocus that would be dumb.

changeable names -> good but my downloader renames, something that should have been on k10

200% dynamic range mode -> press release says 1 extra stop -> is this for raw? if so very very cool if only for jpeg then for me it is useless, I'll take raw and contrast mask / dynamic range compress and get more.

ff/bf -> cool but should have on k10. (personally if a lens has a problem with ff, I'll send back to the manufacturer)

Self timer -> Very cool, I wished for this a lot with the k10 and it should have been there.

lots of little tweaks that should have been on the k10 (and some could have been by only firmware)

So working through it's cool. Dont get me wrong its a nice upgrade to the k10 but why is it a bomb?. Its got enough there to probably make me buy one in a couple months, but no burning hurry. I dont see any mind blowing new technology beyond a new sensor. maybe when there are more images around???

Regards
Phil

cvicisso · 01-23-2008, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by ZaphodB

It hasn't turned the photographic world, or the dSLR world, or the mid-level dSLR world, on its head. Some seemed to imply it would, but I think (or hope) most of us took that as hyperbole caused by (and meant to generate) excitement, rather than a guarantee. If anyone is genuinely disappointed that it's just going to be a very good camera and not a ground-breaking rethinking of the dSLR concept, then maybe they need to adjust their expectations.

Point taken.

But seriously, at least for me (FWTW), I would have been more impressed by stumbling across the unannounced press release tomorrow morning, reading the specs and thinking 'Nice job, Pentax - didn't answer all the mail, but - nice job.' Instead, the much-over-hyped prelude to the press release kind of left me wanting more. A lot more. If Pentax's marketing plan was for 'shock-and-awe' well... you get my point. 'The bomb' turned out to be... 14MP sensor? Did anyone really expect it to remain at 10MP... or at least see some increase? Did anyone expect it not to have Live View?

The K20D is still on my short list of which system to switch to, but it didn't launch to the front of the pack as I had hoped it would.

**codiac2600** · 01-23-2008, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by philmorley

Hi,

*SNIP*

Do the picture style settings have any effect in raw? if not then like the k10's picture I dont see any value. Personally get the most perfect raw shot then convert in ps where I can fine tune easy personally its better than trying to do it camera. Sorry seems like an gimmick.

Live view -> There are occassions when I would love it, but without af ??? its functionality is very significantly reduced. hmm... I really couldn't see anyone putting out a camera with live view that doesn't autofocus that would be dumb.

200% dynamic range mode -> press release says 1 extra stop -> is this for raw? if so very very cool if only for jpeg then for me it is useless, I'll take raw and contrast mask / dynamic range compress and get more.

*SNIP*

Regards
Phil

All picture styles work in RAW and Jpeg.

Live view will AF when you press the AF button, my beta model did not. What is does is raise the mirror real quick focuses and goes back into live view. The Canon 40D doesn't AF at all in any shape or form in Live View and it's a battery hog.

The dynamic range works in RAW and Jpeg and it looked like a massive difference from the standard shots I took.

**codiac2600** · 01-23-2008, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by cvicisso

Point taken. But seriously, at least for me (FWTW), I would have been more impressed by stumbling across the unannounced press release tomorrow morning, reading the specs and thinking 'Nice job, Pentax - didn't answer all the mail, but - nice job.' Instead, the much-over-hyped prelude to the press release kind of left me wanting more. A lot more. If Pentax's marketing plan was for 'shock-and-awe' well... you get my point. 'The bomb' turned out to be... 14MP sensor? Did anyone really expect it to remain at 10MP... or at least see some increase? Did anyone expect it not to have Live View?

The K20D is still on my short list of which system to switch to, but it didn't launch to the front of the pack as I had hoped it would.

It's not the fact that it's 14MP, but the actual IQ. A lot of cameras have bigger sensors, but do they take a better picture? A lot of people think the K100D sensor has a better look than the K10D, there is no difference in IQ from a Canon 20D-30D-40D besides the 40D is a little nosier; what about the Nikon D40-D80-D200, they all look very similar. The K20D blows the IQ levels off the charts compared to what they previously had IMO.

ZaphodB · 01-23-2008, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by cvicisso

Point taken. But seriously, at least for me (FWTW), I would have been more impressed by stumbling across the unannounced press release tomorrow morning, reading the specs and thinking 'Nice job, Pentax - didn't answer all the mail, but - nice job.' Instead, the much-over-hyped prelude to the press release kind of left me wanting more. A lot more. If Pentax's marketing plan was for 'shock-and-awe' well... you get my point. 'The bomb' turned out to be... 14MP sensor? Did anyone really expect it to remain at 10MP... or at least see some increase? Did anyone expect it not to have Live View?

Yeah, it's basically got the specs we knew it had to have to compete, with a few things to make it stand out (the pixel count being more than 40D or D300), and a couple of nice touches we asked for (like PC socket). That's enough for me so I'm happy I got what I wanted - but I'm glad I remained skeptical about the hype. "Bomb" was probably going a bit far

( Speaking in terms of specs of course; "Image quality" may be another matter; it might blow the D300 out the water, but we'll have to see... again I'll stay skeptical; then I can be pleasantly surprised

)

HermanLee · 01-23-2008, 08:20 PM

Hi, Chris!
Thank you for all of the hard work that you've done for this community.
I can see that you're a true dedicated Pentaxian (if I may say that

)

It's hard to please everyone no matter what we do. That's just a life fact.
World will be a much better place if people are content with what they have and
try to reach perfection through imperfection..that's what I call a true success!
A lot of examples out there if we dare to see/admit, people who are disabled but able to do many great things that we the "perfect" ones can't do

Anyhow I'm way far off from being a good photographer..but I'm working on it with my beloved K100D.
I'm still trying to learn the basic of photography well first before having an amazing tool like K20D.

I do have a question, though regarding the AF speed since you mentioned about Trap Focus which disables the camera's need to double check.
Logically that will improve the focus speed, am I right?
If it's right than I believe we already have about 2x improvement in AF speed.

Thanks again for your time.

Jodokast96 · 01-23-2008, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Duck Dodgers

Nice review, Chris. Thanks.

THIS really needs to be brought back to the K10D, in all seriousness. ASAP.

It's the whole reason I'm still at v1.1. I'd hate to find I needed it after I update it. Nothing in 1.2-1.3 I can't live without for now.

ricardobeat · 01-23-2008, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by carpents

So, you're saying that essentially the 'mind-blowing' new camera from Pentax is a K10D with a PC Sync connection and even smaller pixels?

Gee whiz, what a dud. Most certainly not turning the market on its head.

Oh wait, it has Live View. (That you can't use with autofocus.)

Oh wait again, it has 20fps. (At 1.6MP...)

Your review was one for the marketing books.

It has better ISO performance so what are you crying about pixels? 3200 is cleaner than 1600 on the K10.

Have you seen the sample pictures? Put it side by side with a K10D and compare the resolution.

From what we've heard it has perfect Auto WB. Man, just the ability to shoot infrared without a filter (using the viewfinder!) just makes me drool over it.

Calibrated LCD with double the res, etc.. and we haven't seen the outcome of the AF tweaks yet.

If that's not a huge upgrade you were probably expecting an OVNI. Come back in 10 years and maybe they'll have got the camera you're looking for by then.

philmorley · 01-23-2008, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by codiac2600

All picture styles work in RAW and Jpeg.

Live view will AF when you press the AF button, my beta model did not. What is does is raise the mirror real quick focuses and goes back into live view. The Canon 40D doesn't AF at all in any shape or form in Live View and it's a battery hog.

The dynamic range works in RAW and Jpeg and it looked like a massive difference from the standard shots I took.

thanks. Thats sounding cooler

thought it would be like the k10's stuff for just jpeg conversion. Now I see why you're excited about these features.

Didnt realise that 40d liveview doesn't autofocus, doesn't give it much value

thanks
Phil

philmorley · 01-23-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by codiac2600

It's not the fact that it's 14MP, but the actual IQ. A lot of cameras have bigger sensors, but do they take a better picture? A lot of people think the K100D sensor has a better look than the K10D, there is no difference in IQ from a Canon 20D-30D-40D besides the 40D is a little nosier; what about the Nikon D40-D80-D200, they all look very similar. The K20D blows the IQ levels off the charts compared to what they previously had IMO.

I think this is really what those of us who haven't seen it are missing, and maybe why so many people are not excited and feel it was overhyped. Like I said it looks good, and you're reply re: dynamic range for raw gets me excited so I think I should go searching for some images as I am one of those people who thought the 6mp sensor had better image quality than the 10mp and if I can get that IQ (or better

in 14mp that really is something to be very excited about

Thanks again
Phil

*KFrog* · 01-23-2008, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by WMBP

Was afraid of that. I have an event scheduled in mid-March that I would really like to have this camera for! Well, I'll see where I can place an order. Perhaps I can be the first person on my block to get one. Otherwise I'll just have to make do with this old piece of crap K10D. ;-)

Will

Easy there

that's my one month old camera you're talking about there

*rzarbo* · 01-23-2008, 08:42 PM

Chris,

Thank you very much for the time and effort you obviously put in to this. The new K20d sounds very exciting and I am sure will be a hit for Pentax. It may not be a camera that will put them in the lead but it certainly sounds as although it will keep them in the running.

Being one of the soccer moms referred to in an earlier post I am very disappointed about the lack of improvement to the AF. It is my only complaint with the K10d. I am not a fan of Canon and I am not in the league of the d300 skillwise (a camera I have heard experienced d200 users call overwhelming and intimidating) so I was really hoping Pentax would come through for me.

However, being a techie at heart, the k20d has some really cool features and I will probably go for one before years end so my glass is half full.

Thanks again,
Robin

*WMBP* · 01-23-2008, 09:06 PM

I agree that, in the light of day, the K20D doesn't look earth-shattering. I do not, for example, foresee a lot of new Nikon D300 owners kicking themselves for not waiting for the Pentax K20D. And I don't think Nikon D3 owners are even going to notice that Pentax released a new camera.

But overall I'm reasonably happy with the announcement. I'm pleased to hear that Pentax decided to put its efforts into image quality rather than frames per second. I would like a faster camera, but it's not crucial. Actually, the 20 fps 1.6MP idea sounds great to me, satisfactory for shooting sports for publication on the Web. I'm not going to sniff at it at least until I've had a chance to try it. I would like better, faster auto-focus, too. But I have been dealing with that limitation fairly well. I don't expect the camera to work well in the dark.

The K20D looks like it will clearly be a better choice than the Nikon D200, which is still for sale everywhere I check, and which currently costs about what the K20D is expected to sell for. More important, the K20D looks like it will be generally pretty competitive against the new Nikon D300, for those who are free to buy either camera. But here, too, there's an advantage, not perhaps in quality but in price: the Pentax K20D body costs a lot less than the D300 body, and the Pentax lenses generally cost less, too. So the Pentax system is as good a photographic tool, in most respects, and it costs a lot less. Which is pretty much the way things have been for the last year or two.

I try to remind myself often that you can take great photos with almost any system, from any company, at any price. I've seen terrific shots taken with the Nikon D40, with the Pentax K100D, and my brother-in-law has proven that even the Rebel XT is capable (in the hands of a dedicated photographer) of taking great photos. Pentax's line is much more limited, and its lens selection is more limited, too. But you can get the job done--well, I can get the job done--with Pentax equipment, and for a LOT less money. This isn't as sexy a marketing niche as the one that Nikon and Canon occupy, but it works for me, in part because I can't afford to switch. :-)

The thing I am most disappointed about in the K20D announcement is that there is no mention of any improvement in the flash system. Sync speed remains 1/180th sec, which is simply too slow. And it looks like the K20D either doesn't improve on P-TTL and won't support plain ol' TTL. I can live with this, but I continue to think that the biggest weakness of the Pentax system is P-TTL.

Will

*jsherman999* · 01-23-2008, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by codiac2600

It's not the fact that it's 14MP, but the actual IQ. A lot of cameras have bigger sensors, but do they take a better picture? ........... The K20D blows the IQ levels off the charts compared to what they previously had IMO.

I think a very basic point is being missed or discounted here by a lot of folks - both Ben, Chris and a couple other more anonymous sources have been raving about the IQ of this powerful new sensor, and people are just treating it like just another checklist item, on par with the filtering, PC-sync, etc - I don't think it's just another bullet point in the specs, I suspect it might be the selling point for this camera.

We'll have to see more images, or more accurately have some reviewers see the images in resolution tests. I have a feeling people who have been disappointed in the AF/FPS numbers might consider it an acceptable tradeoff when/if the actual images blow away the competition, especially low-light/high ISO. Which has been implied.

It's the IQ, stupid.
.
.
.

Arpe · 01-23-2008, 09:17 PM

Well I have read here time and time again how wonderful the IQ of the K10D is, so SOME innovation in the focus/fps area would have been nice, seeing as the IQ of the existing line up was already supposed to be amazing.