Sony joins FF fray. Is Pentax/Samsung next?

Tbear · 01-30-2008, 06:06 AM

Sony just announced a 24.8MP CMOS FF sensor that will be used in their pro model later this year. Hopefully, Pentax is already working hard with Samsung to develop a FF sensor. With everything else being equal, there can be no doubt that a FF sensor will produce higher IQ and lower noise than an APS-C sensor. Also, I think a FF sensor would benefit Pentax more than any other company. Here is why: Pentax has millions of old 35mm film lenses still in circulation. Can you imagine being able to use these vintage lenses on a state of the art Pentax/Samsung FF sensor? I see some people panicking that because Pentax is making a DA* 30mm, that this will spell the end of lenses like the FA 31mm limited. Hopefully, Pentax will be smarter than that.

Ted

d.bradley · 01-30-2008, 06:16 AM

The A900 has been pretty much common knowledge for a long time, with FF mockups at the last PMA or whatever. No surprises.

But sony is also playing catchup with Pentax, having spec'd a new model (A300) with a 14.2mp CCD...

The FF debate has had too many threads IMHO...

*John Kovarik* · 01-30-2008, 06:48 AM

This thread touches on a matter that I have wondered about. If PTX puts an FF out will present DA lenses work on it? Or will some forrm of adaptation be necessary if at all possible?

Help, please?

*Asahiflex* · 01-30-2008, 07:01 AM

Pentax will come out with a FF camera, no doubt about that. And surely the camera will also have the ability to crop photos on the sensor. I.e. if an APS-C lens is used, only the central part of the sensor will be read out by the camera processor. So crop lenses should be easy to work with.

Ishpuini · 01-30-2008, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by John Kovarik

This thread touches on a matter that I have wondered about. If PTX puts an FF out will present DA lenses work on it? Or will some forrm of adaptation be necessary if at all possible?

Help, please?

The DAs are for APS-C format and will vignet on 135format for sure.

But... they are still producing the FA limiteds aren't they... and there's the DFAs as well...

Nobody knows however (except Pentax perhaps) but it seems to me that APS-C will remain the format for amateurs and semi-pros. 135format means larger bodies and I don't necessarily believe the majority of the current APS-C target audience would buy that...

But who knows...

Wim

mattdm · 01-30-2008, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Asahiflex

Pentax will come out with a FF camera, no doubt about that. And surely the camera will also have the ability to crop photos on the sensor. I.e. if an APS-C lens is used, only the central part of the sensor will be read out by the camera processor. So crop lenses should be easy to work with.

They might. I still think they'll pull out the 645D as their answer to full frame, but I've been wrong before.

Does the rumored Sony full-frame have sensor-shift image stabilization? Are they able to fit that into a compact package? My main concern is that a full-frame Pentax would be noticeably bigger and heavier than my K10D (never mind the lenses).

*John Kovarik* · 01-30-2008, 08:01 AM

Thanks, for the help. It is as I had suspected. If FF = bigger body than I would, if possible,
stay with ASP-C. Size matters..........

*benjikan* · 01-30-2008, 08:04 AM

During the Press conference the Pres. of Pentax France aluded to new models for next year...

Ben

Tom M · 01-30-2008, 08:09 AM

FF is irrelevant. The bottom line is image quality (IQ) - If the IQ is there, any format is acceptable..

FYI - The Canon EOS 1D MK III is all too often refered to as a FF camera but it is only 10.1MP APS-H size sensor, and although everyone refers to the Nikon D3 as being FF, Nikon themselves call it an 12MP FX sensor - not quite 35mm..

So, with the K20D we're getting a 14.6MP APS-C sensor with the same individual pixel size as the 10.2MP sensor in the K10D.. Sounds like a nice combination to me.

JanG · 01-30-2008, 08:14 AM

(This is what I posted in another thread) I think improving the sensor has much more potential than building FF cams that are heavy, bulky, extremely expensive and required a completely new line up of heavy, bulky, extremely expensive lenses.
Keep in mind that even the new K20D sensor uses only 40% of the incoming light. So there is enormous potential for improvement. And remember that doubling the sensor size much more than doubles the costs per chip because the number of chips with faults will much more than double due to the statistical spread of faults on the wafers. Waste is still very high. Plus: there are very few occasions when you really need resolutions in the Hassy range. So my guess is: FF is dead (at least for Pentax). Probably you will have to go C/N/Sony/Hassy for that.
A much faster pro aps-c cam is of course a different story. That we will see probably "soon" (next year?) for half the price of the C/N/Sony FFs.

Jan

*jbcampbell* · 01-30-2008, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Tom M

FF is irrelevant. The bottom line is image quality (IQ) - If the IQ is there, any format is acceptable..

FYI - The Canon EOS 1D MK III is all too often refered to as a FF camera but it is only 10.1MP APS-H size sensor, and although everyone refers to the Nikon D3 as being FF, Nikon themselves call it an 12MP FX sensor - not quite 35mm..

So, with the K20D we're getting a 14.6MP APS-C sensor with the same individual pixel size as the 10.2MP sensor in the K10D.. Sounds like a nice combination to me.

The Canon 1Ds MKxxx & the 5D are true FF camera's the 1D MKxxx has a 1.3 crop factor, I have never heard it referred to as a FF camera.

FotoPete · 01-30-2008, 08:20 AM

I say this is probably whats eventually going to snuff the life or impinge on the medium format sector..with 24MP sensors now??..It can only be described...by this..

slocant · 01-30-2008, 08:25 AM

¿Will Olympus announce a 24x36mm sensor based camera? No. They are developing the 4/3 system.

¿Will Pentax?

To me it seems Pentax is developing an APS-C-sized system, and much can be developed as has been seen recently from different sensor manufacturers, regarding dynamic range, image quality, noise levels etc (and high quality and unforseen versatility (high ISO) has been increasing). And APS-C sized sensors seem as quite an adequate compromise — in between the 4/3 and 24mmx36mm-sized sensors — both from a noise, image quality etc, and lens and body size and ergonomics perspective.

And from some opinions I've read, many photographers (Olympus shooters, Mike Johnston, and quite a few pentaxians) don't seem any bit concerned about sensor size, given the practical results they seem to be obtaining and the plenty of room left for improvement and further development.

I'd say that if someone really needs and can afford a 24mmx36mm-sized sensor, they should choose from those readily available. Or buy into the Sony system which seems to be slated for a 24mmx36mm-sized sensor with the a900.

But I think Pentax (and maybe quite wisely) is building a system based on a different approach to photography. Maybe catering to another group of photographers, with specific needs and views. Hence the special attention to developing primes and the limited series of lenses.

Maybe in the future (and this would be wise if demand and production capacity could reach profitable levels) possibly preparing an upgrade path to large sensors with a ~48mmx36mm sensor based cameras, a.k.a "medium format" DSLRs (which won't be machine guns too :-). This path would be in line with their actual

Originally Posted by Tbear

Here is why: Pentax has millions of old 35mm film lenses still in circulation. Can you imagine being able to use these vintage lenses on a state of the art Pentax/Samsung FF sensor?

A company does not live on already circulating lenses. Pentax wants to sell new lenses.

Some people complain about the lacking of certain lenses for APS-C. Less than 10 lenses (FA 31, FA 35, FA 43, FA 50, DFA 50, FA 77 and DFA 100) do not make a SLR lens system. And Pentax certainly would not rely on third-party lens makers to build it's system.

Cheers,

txbonds · 01-30-2008, 08:26 AM

I don't get some of the replies to FF.

If pentax sticks a full frame sensor into a camera body, the FA Limiteds are not suddenly going to double in size. The about to be released tamron 70-200 isn't going to double in size. Lenses don't have to be huge to be full frame. The argument simply becomes do you want aps-c and possibly smaller lenses like 16-50 & 50-135, or do you want full frame and lenses that are normal sized.

The only reason people are viewing full frame lenses as larger is because they got used to the perceived smaller lenses of aps-c. There isn't that much real difference until you start talking about the pro grade lenses of any manufacturer and there aps-c can shave off some weight, but otherwise the only way to get much smaller is a prime or a pancake.

And the reason people want full frame isn't only to do with perceived increase in image quality, as it's also to do with proper lens perspective and correct focal length. Most of us that are over 20 years old grew up shooting film and also using 35mm. We are used to a set of measurement, sort of like metric versus standard. Problem is that aps-c doesn't just switch the system, it throws a crazy wrench in the mix that makes none of the focal lengths or perspectives make sense. Only system I've seen that tried to combat this is Olympus, but even they use effective focal lengths still.

So, we want 35mm for simplicity, for proper perspective, for reasonable wide solutions that don't skew perspective, etc.

FotoPete · 01-30-2008, 08:42 AM

Hmm Pentax will have to resign at least some of their lenses or start cranking out DFA/FA lenses en masse ... but Pentax just kicked Sony out of the house right? I guess it will be some time before Pentax/Samsung develop a FF sensor.

(Lets hope they don't need a 18-55 III or something like that haha. kidding.)