Pop Photo K20d review

[Tom Lusk]

Whenever I see your large red posts with their barely hidden profanity, it makes me wonder. No-one else here seems to feel the need to do this.

It makes me wonder why you take comments that are not favourable to Pentax so personally...

You constantly make the distinction that you are not employed by Pentax - at least once, I believe, in the same bright jumbo fonts. But being sponsored can be even more of a conflict of interest when it comes to posting on a message board. Because your sponsorship likely depends on not only producing quality photos with Pentax equipment, but promoting their products wherever possible. That is the very nature of sponsorships, as far as I know (from experience).

A perfect example is your building up of the K20 as a camera that would make Canon and Nikon run in terror. I doubt their stocks have taken a major hit, especially when it became apparent that it`s just another serious amateur or enthusiast camera. It apparently has some good points and some deficiencies - just like most cameras. Pentax has apparently stated that they had to choose which improvements to make in this model since they did not have the resources to address all the deficiencies in the K10.

Believe it or not Pentax has many problems. They have problems with incomplete product lines, quality control, finances, marketing - you name it. Pretending these problems do not exist will accomplish nothing. Those who think they must protect Pentax at every turn are likely doing the company more harm than those who bring deficiencies to their attention.

Your threat to RH about not wanting to p*ss you off and indications that he is doing something illegal - pure bunk.

The attacks on RH usually include comments such as he has never taken a photo in his life, and possibly does not even own a Pentax camera. Some have sought out some of his shots on the web and ridiculed them.

Then there is the usual - he has been banned everywhere. You have been banned elsewhere, Ben. You are not shouted down every time you make a comment.

I won`t be putting anyone on an ignore list. It`s too much like a child not wanting to hear something he or she knows they will not like and putting their fingers in their ears and going lalalalalala. If anyone feels the need to add me to their list, though - go for it!

[lol101]

Originally Posted by Tom Lusk

Whenever I see your large red posts with their barely hidden profanity, it makes me wonder. No-one else here seems to feel the need to do this.

Ditto on the big red caps: my eyes still hurt!

Semi-hidden threats also not necessary or welcomed IMHO.

I think there are sometimes major flaws in RH statements and I am willing to dicuss them with him.

The only thing that bothers me is that he seems to only listen to himself and never respond on topic when replied to.... some common practice of "conversational terrorism" but it's pretty much natural for him.

RH is fighting for a cause, I just don't know which one... and sometimes, I think he doesn't either...

[cateto]

Originally Posted by Tom Lusk

Believe it or not Pentax has many problems. They have problems with incomplete product lines, quality control, finances, marketing - you name it. Pretending these problems do not exist will accomplish nothing. Those who think they must protect Pentax at every turn are likely doing the company more harm than those who bring deficiencies to their attention.

For the record, being a comparatively small company (or a niche player, if your prefer) does not equal to having problems in every field. In other cases, it has been evidenced that having a focused strategy can work perfectly fine, even being small (ask Apple).

I have not enough information probably, but from what I have read (and I have read a lot), I have the feeling that Canon is playing the Microsoft role by now: a lost giant. And Pentax looks to me like Apple looked like 8 years ago: right at the begining of a flowering time, leading to a period of healthy sales and innovative products DESIGNED BY PHOTOGRAPHERS, FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS. They won't possibly make the dSLR for johnny idontcare, but will make stunning dSLR for the discerning photographer, with a stunning price for their quality.

Time will tell if I am right or wrong. In the mean time, Nikon seems at the perfect time and place to take the leading role from Canon as major player, and Sony... Sony should one day decide what is exactly their field, as they do too many things to excel at anyone.

Which means that, for the time being, Olympus and Pentax will keep a growing group of customers who know what they are speaking about; while johnyidontcare will keep on buying substandard products from Canon sold at unreasonable prices (when compared to their actual abilities).

And during all these upcoming years, we users of Pentax and Olympus will have to deal with those oh so wise guys dismissing our choice because they know, and they say we don't know. Just like when Windows guys were bashing Apple: at this point, you don't see so many jokes about Apple. And I'm pretty sure that, in a few years, you won't see so many jokes about Pentax or Olympus from the Big Wise Guys Buying Always Canon.

[JMS]

Originally Posted by cateto

For the record, being a comparatively small company (or a niche player, if your prefer) does not equal to having problems in every field. In other cases, it has been evidenced that having a focused strategy can work perfectly fine, even being small (ask Apple).

I have not enough information probably, but from what I have read (and I have read a lot), I have the feeling that Canon is playing the Microsoft role by now: a lost giant. And Pentax looks to me like Apple looked like 8 years ago: right at the begining of a flowering time, leading to a period of healthy sales and innovative products DESIGNED BY PHOTOGRAPHERS, FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS. They won't possibly make the dSLR for johnny idontcare, but will make stunning dSLR for the discerning photographer, with a stunning price for their quality.

Time will tell if I am right or wrong. In the mean time, Nikon seems at the perfect time and place to take the leading role from Canon as major player, and Sony... Sony should one day decide what is exactly their field, as they do too many things to excel at anyone.

Which means that, for the time being, Olympus and Pentax will keep a growing group of customers who know what they are speaking about; while johnyidontcare will keep on buying substandard products from Canon sold at unreasonable prices (when compared to their actual abilities).

And during all these upcoming years, we users of Pentax and Olympus will have to deal with those oh so wise guys dismissing our choice because they know, and they say we don't know. Just like when Windows guys were bashing Apple: at this point, you don't see so many jokes about Apple. And I'm pretty sure that, in a few years, you won't see so many jokes about Pentax or Olympus from the Big Wise Guys Buying Always Canon.

I think a Linux analogy is more apt for Pentax/Olympus.

[ManuH]

Canon and Nikon don’t have to worry; they’re still ahead of the competition. Nikon seem weaker because they don’t build their own sensor and they’re almost out of the P&S market. Canon strong presence in the P&S market is a major advantage.

Sony could become very fast the number 3 if their Alpha begins to sell well. They have the muscle to pull it off because they have the sensor and all the R&D necessary. The A700 is a step in the right direction. They have the A200, A300 and A350 to flood the market, and they seem clearly aimed at the P&S upgraders.

Olympus has probably the best overall system (except of course for Canon/Nikon) but they unfortunately picked the wrong horse: 4/3 small sensors. They will struggle to compete with the ever going MP race. Noise control is already an issue for them; it will become worse and worse, especially if FF cameras start to become cheap. Cheap FF may indeed be the death knell for Olympus.

Pentax looks like in survival mode. We don’t know yet what the Hoya take over will mean for the future but there are some hints that they don’t really want to expand their market. They want to get out of the P&S market. That’s true that they were building uninspiring products here, but I believe you need to have strong presence in that market to make people notice your brand and upgrade later to a DSLR. They seem to want better margins profit, but how can you do that when you’re technologically not ahead and your brand is not very strong? Be satisfied with a niche market?

[regken]

Originally Posted by Tom Lusk

Believe it or not Pentax has many problems. They have problems with incomplete product lines, quality control, finances, marketing - you name it. Pretending these problems do not exist will accomplish nothing. Those who think they must protect Pentax at every turn are likely doing the company more harm than those who bring deficiencies to their attention.

I won`t be putting anyone on an ignore list. It`s too much like a child not wanting to hear something he or she knows they will not like and putting their fingers in their ears and going lalalalalala. If anyone feels the need to add me to their list, though - go for it!

Tom,
Want me to send you my extra flak jacket? Thought I'd jump in here before you are pummeled to a bloody pulp. There is an interesting thread over on the other forum worth reading because of the lack of fanboys for the most part. A well reasoned discussion on what Pentax is and isn't.
I want to stay with pentax: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

I don't like participating in that other forum and keep hoping a rational discussion of the K20D will start here now that guys like Jim King is getting his this week.

Thanks for posting this, it needed to be said and for what it's worth I've got your 6.

Thanks,

ken

[cateto]

Originally Posted by JMS

I think a Linux analogy is more apt for Pentax/Olympus.

I disagree: Pentax is a private company with a small team and a clear goal, like Apple was in ca. 2000.

Linux is community driven and IMO they are way less focused than Pentax or Apple. They do good stuff, but not for the masses.

[Tom Lusk]

As a certified wildland firefighter, my Nomex suit and other gear is always at hand.

It's taken a lot of heat in the past and I'm confident it can do the job again.

Thanks for the offer - though there didn't seem to be any line-up for the 3 and 9.

[benjikan]

Originally Posted by Tom Lusk

Whenever I see your large red posts with their barely hidden profanity, it makes me wonder. No-one else here seems to feel the need to do this.

It makes me wonder why you take comments that are not favourable to Pentax so personally...

You constantly make the distinction that you are not employed by Pentax - at least once, I believe, in the same bright jumbo fonts. But being sponsored can be even more of a conflict of interest when it comes to posting on a message board. Because your sponsorship likely depends on not only producing quality photos with Pentax equipment, but promoting their products wherever possible. That is the very nature of sponsorships, as far as I know (from experience).

A perfect example is your building up of the K20 as a camera that would make Canon and Nikon run in terror. I doubt their stocks have taken a major hit, especially when it became apparent that it`s just another serious amateur or enthusiast camera. It apparently has some good points and some deficiencies - just like most cameras. Pentax has apparently stated that they had to choose which improvements to make in this model since they did not have the resources to address all the deficiencies in the K10.

Believe it or not Pentax has many problems. They have problems with incomplete product lines, quality control, finances, marketing - you name it. Pretending these problems do not exist will accomplish nothing. Those who think they must protect Pentax at every turn are likely doing the company more harm than those who bring deficiencies to their attention.

Your threat to RH about not wanting to p*ss you off and indications that he is doing something illegal - pure bunk.

The attacks on RH usually include comments such as he has never taken a photo in his life, and possibly does not even own a Pentax camera. Some have sought out some of his shots on the web and ridiculed them.

Then there is the usual - he has been banned everywhere. You have been banned elsewhere, Ben. You are not shouted down every time you make a comment.

I won`t be putting anyone on an ignore list. It`s too much like a child not wanting to hear something he or she knows they will not like and putting their fingers in their ears and going lalalalalala. If anyone feels the need to add me to their list, though - go for it!

I have removed my comment...Had an unusually BAD day and RH was right in the middle of the road when the collision occurred, metaphorically speaking.

Ben

[JMS]

Originally Posted by cateto

They do good stuff, but not for the masses.

Exactly my point.

[Mallee Boy]

Originally Posted by RiceHigh

I can never understand why people need to believe that mankind can only own ONE camera brand at a time. Would this be called "brand loyalty"?

All in all, we have not signed a life-time contract with any camera brand that we can only use their gear alone, have you? I think that (blind) "brand loyalty" is just a very stupid thing.

Can I try and explain that to you Michael?

Some, no, probably many, of us have bought into Pentax dslr because we had compatible film bodies and followed the natural course based on, yes, familiarity and , if you like, loyalty to the Pentax brand. Pentax likewise showed their loyalty by retaining their lens K mount. They could have very easily designed something new and left a whole heap of people behind.

Pentax then made the pricing very competitive in a competent camera in the *ist D (S & L) series, so lots of people like me, occasional film photographers, were able to dust off the old K mount lenses and put them on the dslr and re-enter the wonderful world of photography.
I actually thank Pentax for that.
This pricing has also attracted a large number of new Pentax users, which has in turn been supported by the evolution of the K10 & K100 series. The evolution will continue with the K20 & K200.

And based on the number of great photos that come from these cameras no-one can say they are 'bad'.....what ever that is.

As with any technology, it resembles a kaleidoscope, ever changing with new wow factors at every corner.

I can not afford to go chasing every new camera at the end of the dslr rainbow...not enough $$$ for that, so I am happy to stay with Pentax because it meets my needs. So does that make me stupid? or just practical?

While I respect (& defend) your right to express your opinion there is an old saying that you may be aware of, it is "flogging a dead horse". You have been flogging this horse since the days of your eye cup and letter to Pentax. Its dead mate, died a long time ago and is starting to pong.

Cheers.
Grant

[mattdm]

Originally Posted by JMS

I think a Linux analogy is more apt for Pentax/Olympus.

Really? How so? Olympus maybe with the semi-open 4/3rds system, but there's nothing particularly community-driven about Pentax. They do seem very community responsive, which is one of the reasons I really like them, but I don't see a Linux parallel at all.

[JMS]

Originally Posted by mattdm

Really? How so? Olympus maybe with the semi-open 4/3rds system, but there's nothing particularly community-driven about Pentax. They do seem very community responsive, which is one of the reasons I really like them, but I don't see a Linux parallel at all.

Both are high quality products that are only used by people who are willing to invest the time to get it to work just right.

[mattdm]

Originally Posted by JMS

Both are high quality products that are only used by people who are willing to invest the time to get it to work just right.

It just seems a little strained because the reasons why that might be so are totally different. Linux is more work because a) it lets you get at layers of the system that proprietary operating systems try to hide, b) it's made of a vast array of software from thousands of different sources so you don't get single-vendor consistency, and c) the whole issue with software patents makes out-of-box multimedia support difficult. I'm not seeing how any of those apply to Pentax!

Plus, I'm skeptical that any need to invest time to make it work right is greater for Pentax and Olympus than anyone else. Any good camera will do more the more you put into it — which is also true for software, really.

[mutley]

Originally Posted by benjikan

I have removed my comment...Had an unusually BAD day and RH was right in the middle of the road when the collision occurred, metaphorically speaking.

Ben

As annoying, and overstated as RH posts on many forums, and easily found blog are, hopefully they'll at least have the effect of putting a fire under Pentax's ass to get basic commonly comparative performance to equal the competition. No excuses already.

- AF with true predictive ability, smaller & more AF sensors, low light sensitivity, coast-into-focus, no double-check, etc...

- Better control of chroma noise from the chip to start with like Nikon (luminance is what loses detail) All RAW has some NR done automatically, and Pentax should take minimizing chroma noise more seriously.

- 3" higher resolution/pixels LCD. The color calibration feature that Pentax provides would just be a reason to choose Pentax over another brand, but at least the resolution would also be on par.

- Edge sharpening option. All the new jpg settings have the same textural sharpening choice only.

- Useful live view that has at least what lower cost competition has such as live histogram, exposure simulation, and contrast detect focusing

- at least 5 fps


These are not features that must be reserved for the eventual "Pro" level camera. These are features the K30D or equivalent should have at the new $1300 price level. The Kxx series is no K10D $995 (and less) camera anymore. The D300 can command a $400 price premium purely on the Nikon name alone, yet Nikon still decided to give it state-of-the-art, competitive responsiveness performance. The K20D is done, so its performance is set, but hopefully Pentax is designing this stuff right now for the K30D (and as a minimum for the "pro" body), because by the time the K30D will come out at $1300, the D400 will be out at $1799.