I won't go to "no lens" point it has been talked to death here. But look in previous roadmaps and you'll see that the DFA 645 was there a long time ago before the presumed launch of 645D and now there is no hint even in the march roadmap. One last thing is the way Penatx insisted that the DA* 200 and 300 are optimised for APS-C. Could it be any chance that Pentax will do a DFA* variants one year after their launch and get away with it?

Anyway my prediction is an upper class camera announced at Photokina with the same body, a tweaked 14.6Mp sensor as K20Ds and improved AF system, faster fps with new mirror box and a Prime 2 at least and maybe new mettering system.

FF camera? Maybe next year, maybe latter ...

Radu

I still wait for the WB person to post a photo with the "best of Canon and Nikon" she uses to compare the Pentax FF

[Blue]

Well I have a obsolete Nikon Coolpix 5700 that has an electronic viewfinder. It is pretty hopeless. There is image lag, there is no 3D depth perception and it feels like watching a mini TV screen.

I have one of those also. It is serving as my P&S. You don't even want to know what I paid for it in Dec 2001.

[Pål Jensen]

[QUOTE=kent vinyard;278732]Andrew,
I wouldn't worry to much about having to eat your words! If Pentax corp. will turn a new prototype camera over to a "nurse" who doesn't even publish her images or work professionally with cameras instead of having someone like Ben, Marc, or many other high profile photographers to test, then they are just plain stupid. QUOTE]


Don't be too sure. Pentax probably want fedback from a variety of users that fit the customer profile. Advanced amateurs that use both 645 and the K-system could be target customers.
Anyway, what Wendy seem to be suggesting (and lets take a look into it for the fun of it) is that the new flagship camera somehow fuses the 645 system with FF K-mount via the lens mount. Mechanically, I believe that a hybrid Pentax 645/K-mount is possible, although complex. The K-mount fit exactly into the 645 mount and the lens side of the 645 mount fit within the outside perimetre of the K-mount. The main difficulties would be to facilitate the mechanical linkages.
However, the huge problem is the difference in mount to sensor distance beween 645 mount and the K-mount. A moving sensor that adjust itself to the lens in use is possible to implement. However, my mind refuse to think about how this would affect the finder/mirror system.
Ohh... and while we are at it: a movable sensor could facilitate a tilt/shift function toghether with live view. Such a camera would be fantastic for landscape, arcitectural and studio photography. Unfortunately, it is probably to complex to be realistic.

Anyway, the rumors for a FF Pentax due quite soon (September - November delivery?), seem quite solid from a variety of sources.

[ricardobeat]

[QUOTE=Pål Jensen;281180]

Andrew,
I wouldn't worry to much about having to eat your words! If Pentax corp. will turn a new prototype camera over to a "nurse" who doesn't even publish her images or work professionally with cameras instead of having someone like Ben, Marc, or many other high profile photographers to test, then they are just plain stupid. QUOTE]


Don't be too sure. Pentax probably want fedback from a variety of users that fit the customer profile. Advanced amateurs that use both 645 and the K-system could be target customers.
Anyway, what Wendy seem to be suggesting (and lets take a look into it for the fun of it) is that the new flagship camera somehow fuses the 645 system with FF K-mount via the lens mount. Mechanically, I believe that a hybrid Pentax 645/K-mount is possible, although complex. The K-mount fit exactly into the 645 mount and the lens side of the 645 mount fit within the outside perimetre of the K-mount. The main difficulties would be to facilitate the mechanical linkages.
However, the huge problem is the difference in mount to sensor distance beween 645 mount and the K-mount. A moving sensor that adjust itself to the lens in use is possible to implement. However, my mind refuse to think about how this would affect the finder/mirror system.
Ohh... and while we are at it: a movable sensor could facilitate a tilt/shift function toghether with live view. Such a camera would be fantastic for landscape, arcitectural and studio photography. Unfortunately, it is probably to complex to be realistic.

Anyway, the rumors for a FF Pentax due quite soon (September - November delivery?), seem quite solid from a variety of sources.

This would be a simple way to combine the two mounts:



The register distance issue is solved by design, no need to move the sensor. The main issues would be the uncovered pins on the outer mount when the K mount is used, and that most K(AF) lenses would have it's focal length and aperture marks buried into the mount. A retractable 645 mount maybe?
It's probably easier and cheaper to sell a camera with a few adapters included than a frankenstein like this.

---

Last edited by ricardobeat; 07-01-2008 at 08:22 PM.

[philmorley]

thats a pretty well done drawing, how long before we see it scattered all over the net as a definite for the next camera... hmmm "acquired by secret by a friend whos works for pentax"... could be fun LOL!!

oooh, perhaps it was ????

[NicholasN]

hahahaha I love the electric shock of the uVR.... thats a classic. I wonder if the D90 will come with optional "paddles" which will turn it into a defibulator in the event of a heart attack. Soon we'll see paramedics with DSLR's rather than medical equipment.

If it could take and x-ray the D90 would be a worldbeater.

[gkopeliadis]

FF camera? Maybe next year, maybe latter ...

A Full Format camera by a company that designs only APC-S format lens these days?
That would be the day!

[ftpaddict]

[quote=ricardobeat;281562]

This would be a simple way to combine the two mounts:

That would make turning the aperture ring on a K or M lens really annoying.

A Full Format camera by a company that designs only APC-S format lens these days?
That would be the day!

Sir,

I a few years time many things can change. If the thought of a FF camera in 2009-2010 is too much for many of us what about those who say it's comming this year?

I guess the first real hint will be the next lens roadmap. If we'll see the advent of some FF lenses (zooms included) then a FF body will appear IMO next year. If not maybe in 2010 or latter.

I found a very interesting piece about developing of FF by Nikon here: Some Thoughts on The Nikon D700
They basically say that from the moment of going FF decission was made Nikon worked some 18-24 months at D3 camera. Considering how big N is compared to P I guess the FF fans (and some fanatics) will have to wait a bit longer.

The only way out of this could be if Samsung builds at least a new factory for this camera and the coresponding lenses and funds lavishly this project only to not be outdone by Sony. Then it may become reality sooner. If a joint team of Samsung and Pentax engineers will work together for specific tasks (new AF system, new electronics inside, new mettering system, new shutter - mirror box system, maybe even a bigger body from scratch) then I see a commercial sense in this project since all those will eventually come down in all the Pentax range of camera with tremendous effect.

I always said that IMO the right path for Pentax in the short run is to come up with an upper class camera with 14,6 sensor and the fill up the holes in it's DA lens lineup and this is what I think will happen in 2008 and the next year. But being owned by Hoya and in some sort of alliance with Samsung may be a very favourable possition and we may see great things very soon.

Radu

[Pål Jensen]

[QUOTE=ricardobeat;281562]

This would be a simple way to combine the two mounts:



The register distance issue is solved by design, no need to move the sensor. The main issues would be the uncovered pins on the outer mount when the K mount is used, and that most K(AF) lenses would have it's focal length and aperture marks buried into the mount. A retractable 645 mount maybe?
It's probably easier and cheaper to sell a camera with a few adapters included than a frankenstein like this.

That does not work. K-lenses are too wide fit within the 645 mount. Only the mount part of the lens will fit, not the rest of the body.
That solution would only work if the 645 part of the mount was retractable/telescopic. Come to think of it...that probably wouldn't work either because the inner K-mount would then probably interfere with the lightpath from the lesnes causing vignetting. Not to mention the complexities of the mechanical connections...

[Pål Jensen]

They basically say that from the moment of going FF decission was made Nikon worked some 18-24 months at D3 camera. Considering how big N is compared to P I guess the FF fans (and some fanatics) will have to wait a bit longer.

We do not know for how long Pentax have been working on a FF camera. After all they started working on one in 2000!
According to official info, there will be two more bodies this year. One of them high-end. In an interesting interview with the Pentax boss awhile back it was said that Pentax didn't have the resources to develop a FF camera and the 645D simultaneously. The funny thing is that one of these projects was frozen....

[Pål Jensen]

I always said that IMO the right path for Pentax in the short run is to come up with an upper class camera with 14,6 sensor and the fill up the holes in it's DA lens lineup and this is what I think will happen in 2008 and the next year. But being owned by Hoya and in some sort of alliance with Samsung may be a very favourable possition and we may see great things very soon.

Radu

Pentax current problem is that the K200D and the K20D is too close to each other and too close to their predecessors. I fear that if Pentax makes a camera above the K20D with the same sensor, the only thing they achieve is further cannibalization. A high class 14,6mp camera is better a K20D replacement; the K30D. ie both the K200D and the K20D to be moved upmarket. In part to give room for the entry level model due soon.
This is my vision for Pentax line up one year from now:


K2000D: 10mp entry level camera
K300D: 14,6 mp camera with live view; an updated K200D but with an extra wheel.
K30D: 14.6mp in magnesium body. 5fps and improved AF derived from the top model.
K3D: 30mp FF

We do not know for how long Pentax have been working on a FF camera. After all they started working on one in 2000!
According to official info, there will be two more bodies this year. One of them high-end. In an interesting interview with the Pentax boss awhile back it was said that Pentax didn't have the resources to develop a FF camera and the 645D simultaneously. The funny thing is that one of these projects was frozen....

Well,

Because I don't need one (and obviously won't buy one in some time from now) that's not equal to "Pentax should not make one". IMO if they will within at least an year from now it will be a major waste of ressources but by all means I have nothing against it . After all why invest in much needed upgrades to AF system, electronics, mettering, new flashes, stronger shutters with more fps, a wireless system like other brands have? Let's do a FF body and all that will magically disapear.

The whole point some of the FF evangelists here badly miss is that Canon has 3 FF sensors (12, 16, 21 Mp) in 3 class categories and with specific targets in mind - and obviously prices to match. Soon enough Nikon will have 2 sensors one aimed at low noise high ISO and one at high resolution studio shots. Both have loads of lenses from the very wide to extreme tele and in some simple words both have complete systems with whatever a pro or a very advanced amateur could want (including top notch flashes). This is why right now Pentax if will do one (on Samsung money I pray) will do it just for the bragging right (just like Sony does).
So that pathetic wannabies with a second hand k100D could brush shoulders once in a while with a "Pentax FF pro" and hope that all that presumed glory will come upon them. And of course whine some more after the launch that "they want one but it is not what they need. If only it would have been ... different somehow ". All the doom and gloom prophets may better focus on market share and revenue growth rather than a <2% market like FF. And the bread and butter for Pentax right now is APS-C system.

Another point that is sadly missed it's the cost of lenses. Do you think you'll use a 70s lens on a 20+ Mp sensor? Not even a FA 50 I don't think will be up to the job but you're entitled to your own opinion. I'll prefer to invest in DA Ltds and DA* for a fraction of money and buy much more lenses of quality rather than "plain" FF one. Again it's my opinion and it suits my style and needs better.

And to touch a bit the 645D point. Again IMO for Pentax would be better to finally release a 645D because (shockingly, doesn't it?) Canon or Nikon has none that could touch it. Make like 1000 and use them as a publicity stunt. Give some to the sponsored pros, put one in every single commercial for K200D or K20D to show the noble blood of the family. What the heck make a promotion and give some of them as prizes for any Pentax buyer who register his/her camera on the Pentax site. Anyway there is no money for Pentax to make (FOR NOW) in this market but they could show they are really in a league of their own. And even more shockingly for that camera Pentax even has some serious glass to put on!

Radu

[creampuff]

Well there is already a digital 645 camera - the Mamiya 645 AFD II with ZD back (a mere 22 megapixel). The cheapest digital MF currently, it costs US$10,000 a piece (current promotion price). Has sales been phenomenal? I doubt it.

So why would a digital Pentax 645 be any better sales wise? Assuming Pentax matches Mamiya's price, at 10K per body many Pentax users will baulk to buy one.

A digital 645 might well be a lovely proof of concept but produce 1,000 copies to give away? That's 10 million dollars Pentax can ill afford to throw away. Is it any wonder it got shelved and taken off the roadmap...

Pentax current problem is that the K200D and the K20D is too close to each other and too close to their predecessors. I fear that if Pentax makes a camera above the K20D with the same sensor, the only thing they achieve is further cannibalization. A high class 14,6mp camera is better a K20D replacement; the K30D. ie both the K200D and the K20D to be moved upmarket. In part to give room for the entry level model due soon.
This is my vision for Pentax line up one year from now:


K2000D: 10mp entry level camera
K300D: 14,6 mp camera with live view; an updated K200D but with an extra wheel.
K30D: 14.6mp in magnesium body. 5fps and improved AF derived from the top model.
K3D: 30mp FF

Pål,

There is no way Pentax will replace current cameras with new models after so little time after their introduction. If you see the trends in prices for both K200D and K20D it's pretty clear that soon enough first will battle with entry levels from C and N and the latter with midrange (the likes of 450D and future D90). It's beyond me why you need a new body for the new "more pro" camera as long as Pentax needs to use as much common parts as it can in all the models to reduce costs. Further more magnesium bodies could be more or less weather sealed (Canon is not e.g.)
The differential between a K20D and the "K2D" could be done at various levels discused in extenso before and as a K20D user I can confirm there are things that could be improved to give a more "pro" impression to new users and add value to the new camera.
My FF thoughts are above (and they are not nice) and about an entry level camera tell me in what factory could Pentax make it? They chronically lack production capacity as it is. And even more important why make such a camera when they can sell a quality body like K200D with so little money even today?!

Radu