The structure of HOYA Corporation and myth about Tokina

[Blue]

This has been brought up before. Apparently, people keep over looking the fact that Tokina is privately owned where Hoya is a public company. That means that there could very well be keep people o the board at Hoya who own part of Tokina including Suzuki himself.

However there is no proof that there aren't connections than there is. Hoya has only had Pentax a little over 2 years. Plus, Tokina is private and apparently financially solvent. That makes merging and moving a little more risky and tricky, IF Tokina is owned by Hoya or by people at Hoya.

[jeffkrol]

Originally Posted by matthis

Of course there is no consensus, because it is contradicted by the fact that Hoya never mentions its alleged ownership of Tokina or Kenko and it is also very unlikely from a business point of view. Why should Hoya integrate Pentax completely into its operations, but keep a second lensmaker as an affiliate? Why wouldn't they move the lens manufacturing to Vietnam, as they did with Pentax's? Why would they share only the optical design, but not the barrel design?

The false rumor that Hoya owns Tokina is nothing but a naive speculation and wishful thinking, based on a misinterpretation of the fact that Hoya licensed its brand for the Kenko filters and more misunderstandings by some journalists and forum writers, who use to cite each other in circular ways.

There is nothing circular in what I posted. Secondly, though I can't profess to a complete understanding of them, Japanese business culture cannot always be understood using "western" understandings of terms.
My bottom line is if somethings good for Hoya, Tokina will go along.
Conspiracy theory 1) Why are some Tokina lenses not offered for Pentax?. My answser, Hoya doesn't want them offered in Pentax mount.
Ownership can take many forms..........
Second thing, as to private... Tokina states that their "stockholder" is Kenko.....
See the pdf I posted.........

[falconeye]

Originally Posted by jeffkrol

Why are some Tokina lenses not offered for Pentax?. My answser, Hoya doesn't want them offered in Pentax mount.

I agree with what jeffkroll said.

Except that the above argument isn't conclusive.

Tokina and Pentax have an (official?) cooperation sharing lens designs on a mutual exclusive base. If this cooperation was mandated by Hoya, we don't know for sure.

[thibs]

Originally Posted by falconeye

I agree with what jeffkroll said.

Except that the above argument isn't conclusive.

Tokina and Pentax have an (official?) cooperation sharing lens designs on a mutual exclusive base. If this cooperation was mandated by Hoya, we don't know for sure.

AFAIK the collaboration Tokina/Pentax dated prior to Hoya buyout.
After that, anything is speculation:

Did Hoya stopped that collaboration altogether?
Did Hoya even decided anything about the collaboration?

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by jeffkrol

There is nothing circular in what I posted. Secondly, though I can't profess to a complete understanding of them, Japanese business culture cannot always be understood using "western" understandings of terms.
My bottom line is if somethings good for Hoya, Tokina will go along.
Conspiracy theory 1) Why are some Tokina lenses not offered for Pentax?. My answser, Hoya doesn't want them offered in Pentax mount.
Ownership can take many forms..........
Second thing, as to private... Tokina states that their "stockholder" is Kenko.....
See the pdf I posted.........

Question...does Tokina actually license the mount and lens based firmware from other mfgs? If Tokina actually does it this way, for a given lens there may be contractual restrictions on the total number of other mounts which a given lens can be offered with. So if an agreement limits to two mounts, seems likely they two brands with the largest user base might be the mounts offered. I see it as more complicated than this but distilled down, licensing agreements can indeed be this complicated as well as limiting. It is also why Sigma chooses to reverse engineer mounts and the lens firmware rather than license...more market freedom along with the associated ability to quickly adapt to market changes.

[thibs]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

Question...does Tokina actually license the mount and lens based firmware from other mfgs? If Tokina actually does it this way, for a given lens there may be contractual restrictions on the total number of other mounts which a given lens can be offered with. So if an agreement limits to two mounts, seems likely they two brands with the largest user base might be the mounts offered. I see it as more complicated than this but distilled down, licensing agreements can indeed be this complicated as well as limiting. It is also why Sigma chooses to reverse engineer mounts and the lens firmware rather than license...more market freedom along with the associated ability to quickly adapt to market changes.

Very good point IMO

[Blue]

Hoya also had connections with Tokina before Hoya took over Pentax. If for nothing else, Hoya was selling glassy to them. Granted it could have been strictly business.

[Photomy]

Originally Posted by jeffkrol

OK, if you look through this thread you will see that twice (and 2 different) Hoya exec's state that Hoya "ownes" Tokina.
Hoya ownes Tokina??? : Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
My guesstimate is since Tokina/Kenko are a LTD. company their "private stock" may well be owned by Hoya in a majority stake. This appears to be one of those more convoluted relationships.

For $443 US you may be able to find out for sure.
TOKINA CO.,LTD. (Single location) - IRUMA-GUN - JAPAN - D&B - AlacraStore.com
Ogl I used to strongly believe the same thing (Tokina independence) but that wall is crumbling a bit. It still may be true but the pendulum is swinging to some sort of "ownership".
Both Tokina and Kenko are pretty dependent on Hoya...

This is quite possible. No way to know for sure, but it may be possible. In fact, they could effectively control the company with 30-40% ownership, particularly if the remaining portions are divided up into small pieces or a significant amount is friendly to HOYA. But, with less than 51% their accounting rules probably do not allow showing it as a subsidiary. It instead, just shows up as security investment asset somewhere. Not knowing their rules, it may even be possible that a 60% ownership stake would only show up as an investment. The Japanese business world has been notorious for convoluted ownership and controls of companies. It is like multiple spider webs linked together.

[ogl]

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: All Pentax Lenses are Solely Designed by Pentax!

[Blue]

[thibs]

Originally Posted by ogl

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: All Pentax Lenses are Solely Designed by Pentax!

Which is wrong, once again. 12-24 is a Tokina design. The only one, but still Tokina's.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by thibs

Which is wrong, once again. 12-24 is a Tokina design. The only one, but still Tokina's.

Perhaps, but there are several lenses in Tokina's current line up that share optical formulae and specs with Current Pentax lenses as well as ones in the past. From the current Tokina lineup:

AT-X 100 PRO D 100mm macro (9 Elements / 8Groups & focus limiter, etc)

AT-X 165 PRO DX 16-50mm (15 elements in 12 groups)

Tokina AT-X 535 PRO DX 50-135mm (18 elements in 14 groups)

AT-X 107 DX 10-17mm full frame fisheye (10 elements in 8 groups)

AT-X M35 PRO DX 35mm macro with WR front (9 element in 8 groups)

[ogl]

Originally Posted by thibs

Which is wrong, once again. 12-24 is a Tokina design. The only one, but still Tokina's.

DFA100 macro too. But they says about DA* + DA 10-17, DA 35 Macro, DFA 50 Macro.
I've found such patents too. All are Pentax's.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by ogl

DFA100 macro too. But they says about DA* + DA 10-17, DA 35 Macro, DFA 50 Macro.
I've found such patents too. All are Pentax's.

I haven't seen a 50mm macro in Tokina's past or current lineup. Hoya must be o.k. with these because they are selling them glass.

Edit: It turns out that the current or recent Tokina lenses share formulae with Pentax lenses. Previous Tokina do not.

[thibs]

Originally Posted by ogl

DFA100 macro too. But they says about DA* + DA 10-17, DA 35 Macro, DFA 50 Macro.
I've found such patents too. All are Pentax's.

DFA may be AFAIK no definitive answer.

Indeed rest are Pentax designs.