FF & APS C combined?

shuie · 02-10-2009, 08:48 AM

I haven't seen this possibility talked about in the speculation threads but can anybody tell me why it wouldn't be possible to make a FF camera that recognizes when an APS-C lens is mounted then automatically crops the image? I would imagine it could have a mechanism similar to the PZ1p's cropping baldes but mounted by the focusing screen to allow you to see what the lens will photo as far as FOV. Or even simpler have a focusing screen with the APS-C coverage outlined. By doing this All lenses would be usable as they were designed to be. I really can't think of a disadvantage. I suppose the could put a setting in the menu to disable the auto crop for those people who want to complain about vignetting.

Shuie

ogl · 02-10-2009, 08:53 AM

All modern FF camera has it.

shuie · 02-10-2009, 08:59 AM

then why all the whining about DA lenses that don't offer FF coverage? I

Samsungian · 02-10-2009, 09:06 AM

Canon aps-c lenses cannot be used on canon aps-h or canon full frame. Canon modified their eos mount on aps-lenses and rear element sits closer to sensor plane.

Nikon however allows for this. For example, D700 is a 12mp full frame dslr and with aps-c glass it becomes a 5mp dslr. I've now read of numerous complaints with sigma aps-c lenses not being recognized by D700 so yet another problem with reverse engineering a third party mount.

I assume pentax would travel the path Nikon has. But is 5mp capture on a 12mp full frame that appealing?

Originally Posted by shuie

then why all the whining about DA lenses that don't offer FF coverage? I

shuie · 02-10-2009, 09:15 AM

The point i'm making is that the cropped image has the same benefits as FF in terms of sensor pixel density with lower noise etc. etc. etc. The image quality would be the same as cropping the image PP. In essence that is what is happening. So what would be the mp count of a APS-c image taken with an 18 mp ff sensor?

shuie · 02-10-2009, 09:24 AM

Even better take the same sensor as the k20 uses, and scale it up to ff maintaining the same pixel density. I don't know what the end MP result would be but then you get FF and in theory the APS-c image would be identical to that of a K20, while allowing full use of FF glass. As far as third party lenses, treat them like FF lenses and crop the image PP.

Samsungian · 02-10-2009, 09:25 AM

Just guessing here since your 18mp full frame does not exist so I guess less than 1/2 so maybe 8mp aps-c crop mode.

Whereas my K20D is what 14 or 15mp? To get this mp count on a full frame/crop frame K mount dslr you'd need a 32-34mp full frame K Mount.
And thats gonna cost you some serious money I'd assume.

I have a D700 and I have considered buying a aps-c lens but 5mp is a real turnoff. So its a selling point with aps-c lenses inhand to be able to use them but without any inhand I highly doubt I'll buy a aps-c nikon lens unless I get a crazy good deal on aps-c nikon lens.

Originally Posted by shuie

The point i'm making is that the cropped image has the same benefits as FF in terms of sensor pixel density with lower noise etc. etc. etc. The image quality would be the same as cropping the image PP. In essence that is what is happening. So what would be the mp count of a APS-c image taken with an 18 mp ff sensor?

Gooshin · 02-10-2009, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by shuie

then why all the whining about DA lenses that don't offer FF coverage? I

convention and breadth of creative controls.

to understand this you need to pick up a film camera and use it.

Pentax has no equivalent of its SMC 15mm f3.5

pentax has no equivlanet of the FA*24 f2.0

pentax has no equivlaent of its FA 31mm f1.8

pentax will probably never again have the equivalent of a 50mm f1.2

pentax no longer makes fast glass, and their wide end selections are rather bleak. (DA14 and DA12-24)

if the DA15 f4 that comes out will not cover a full frame circle, IMO it will be a joke of a lens.

again, you have to use a full frame camera, with the wide glass, with the fast glass, to understand what you are missing.

if you dont shoot wide angle, if you dont shoot at open apertures, then the FF/APS-C debate is lost on you, and you should not bother arguing

otherwise, there is no debate, beacuse everyone that has shot film/full frame/medium format under the conditions that i listed, understands what they have lost.

also, all you telephoto guys, shhh

shuie · 02-10-2009, 09:46 AM

I have shot both film and digital, and there are times I wish for wider angle, but my point is if a FF camera were made to be automatically compatible with all aps-c lenses than I fail to see the drawbacks. furthermore Pentax should know which new lenses offer FF coverage so they could properly adapt which lenses the new system would auto crop. It seems like the d700 approach is a way to have your cake and eat it too, although a smaller bite when using an APS-c lens. I realize there isnt an 18mp ff sensor that really isnt the point, it was just an example.

kenyee · 02-10-2009, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by shuie

if a FF camera were made to be automatically compatible with all aps-c lenses than I fail to see the drawbacks

Cost. Cost. And Cost.
Those the main reasons...
I think the D3x (using Sony's 24mpix sensor) does what you want w/o the resolution decrease. However, you lose 1-2 stops of low light capability because of the smaller photosites, which is something I'd hate to lose in a FF camera...

Gooshin · 02-10-2009, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by shuie

I have shot both film and digital, and there are times I wish for wider angle, but my point is if a FF camera were made to be automatically compatible with all aps-c lenses than I fail to see the drawbacks. furthermore Pentax should know which new lenses offer FF coverage so they could properly adapt which lenses the new system would auto crop. It seems like the d700 approach is a way to have your cake and eat it too, although a smaller bite when using an APS-c lens. I realize there isnt an 18mp ff sensor that really isnt the point, it was just an example.

yes you can have your cake and eat it too, only its a crappy cake, and you're not really hungry.

pentax decided to go the compact route, which from one point of view is a good thing, for the modern age.

the pentax that was is disappearing, i bought into pentax for reasons different than those that are currently keeping me in photography

much like Kelly (thePirate!!) jumped shipped, i may be forced to do the same.

*cousinsane* · 02-10-2009, 10:01 AM

It's already been proven the DA15 does not cover full frame.
DA 15 ³öÀ´ÁË - ÎÞ¼ÉÂÛÌ³
post #131

Originally Posted by Gooshin

if the DA15 f4 that comes out will not cover a full frame circle, IMO it will be a joke of a lens.

Kguru · 02-10-2009, 10:04 AM

An idea had been floated long ago that Pentax can provide a menu option, much like BF/FF adjustments on K20D for up to 20 lenses, that user can customize crop factor for each DA lens s/he owns. Better than a rigid 1.5x

ogl · 02-10-2009, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Samsungian

Canon aps-c lenses cannot be used on canon aps-h or canon full frame. Canon modified their eos mount on aps-lenses and rear element sits closer to sensor plane.

Yes. You are right.

Sony A900 has.

Gooshin · 02-10-2009, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by cousinsane

It's already been proven the DA15 does not cover full frame.
DA 15 ³öÀ´ÁË - ÎÞ¼ÉÂÛÌ³
post #131

then its a joke lens, wtf, only proves pentax is aiming at the "compact" market.

whats really intresting though is that the Asahi Takumar era, if you take a look at all the lenses, they are very tiny and compact

the only difference NOW is that the same lenses cover less and lack the shallow DOF.