FF in 2010? - Page 18

knoxploration · 11-05-2009, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Shingoshi

The reference to the Nikon D700 keeps coming up with regards to the Kodak ProSLR/n. What I'm not sure about is which one came first. But they allegedly share a lot in common. So why are you suggesting that a Nikon D700 camera is a necessarily better buy than the Kodak? This prices given for used Nikon models are at least about twice the Kodak. And the Kodak has a higher resolution at that lower price.

It's very easy to educate oneself - Google is your friend.

Kodak: Five year old design, discontinued four years ago, based on a low-cost consumer DSLR, max ISO of 1600 equivalent.
Kodak DCS Pro SLR/n - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nikon D700: Year-old design, still a current model, ground-up DSLR in a semi-pro body, max ISO of 25,600.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikon_D700

It's honestly a bit laughable to compare the two - which is to be expected given the huge difference in their age.

thibs · 11-05-2009, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by LensScribe

Really? Isn't support for legacy glass a Pentax selling point? It's certainly what excites me most about a potential Pentax FF. I'd love to be able to use my 17mm Takumar Fish Eye on a FF digital, even if the quality isn't quite what it would be were it a dedicated digital FF lens, I can't imagine it would be unusably appalling.

It is good and bad at the same time. It is good for selling bodies, but pretty bad for selling lenses.
The problem is that real money is made on lenses, not bodies.

Look at this, my usual retailer (a real store which means expensive as well) has the DA16-50 at 1000 Euros. Expensive isn't it? Sure, but the Nikon 17-50/2.8 is at 1500 Euros.

Money is on the lenses and that's exactly why the aperture simulator will never come back. It is a pity but I understand why they will not put it back.

Aristophanes · 11-05-2009, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by LensScribe

Really? Isn't support for legacy glass a Pentax selling point? It's certainly what excites me most about a potential Pentax FF. I'd love to be able to use my 17mm Takumar Fish Eye on a FF digital, even if the quality isn't quite what it would be were it a dedicated digital FF lens, I can't imagine it would be unusably appalling.

Pentax does NOT want you using that lens, not from a business perspective!

In this competitive market, a company might make $300 EBIT off an FF body. Yet the development cost, production costs, marketing, distribution, etc., might cost $20 million.

Amortize that over the # of bodies needed to sell, and you see that a Pentax 4% market share is a problem. And this only cover the first FF body. Each subsequent advance would take a % of that investment all over again, for either new or returning customers. A company needs a large, stable economy-of-scale to bring FF to market, in part because the product is higher-end, so already has a smaller base market with which to work.

Add in the development cost of lenses and their higher profit margins (same EBIT per unit, but half the unit cost, with substantial crossover between lenses and generations) and you have the necessary second revenue stream to make the first investment in the FF body worthwhile, even profitable.

It might actually be more cost effective for Pentax glass aficionados to buy a Nikon/Canon FF and an adapter for Pentax legacy lenses (and this applies to both the consumer and Pentax).

It's just the economics of the market. Pentax's standing base market has to grow substantially to see FF. A high-end, premium demand product like MF may have more legs as production can more easily be scaled to demand and there is a recognition that the MF body, being part of a less portable system, is relatively more important to the IQ than FF. Pros who can afford MF have the write-offs to support larger capital expenditures. the tax code is set up this way ;-)

dylansalt · 11-06-2009, 02:30 AM

The Nikon D700 has full backward compatability with all it's old lenses but at the same time has some really good "new" ff lenses as well - the lenses are generally in abundance in the market place worldwide - even here (where Pentax 2nd hand lenses don't exist)

2010 is just around the corner - Pentax would need to release a ff better than the D700 & 5DMK11 and a range of "new" ff zoom lenses to even make an impact with re: global sales otherwise they will lose ROI big time.

Unfortunately Pentax has the habit of producing dslrs that "just don't quite cut it as a system" in the eyes of the consumer

Now that I'm seriously looking at investing into FF I am now looking at the viability of the Pentax Corp going forward and the "system" I have access to (new & 2nd hand) e.g. you cannot trade Pentax gear

I am sure many existing Pentax users are thinking this and this cannot be good for the company in the long term

So in summary - FF from Pentax only if it "destroys" the current champs in all ways.

regards

dyls

ozlizard · 11-06-2009, 03:52 AM

Now that I'm seriously looking at investing into FF I am now looking at the viability of the Pentax Corp going forward and the "system" I have access to (new & 2nd hand) e.g. you cannot trade Pentax gear

I am sure many existing Pentax users are thinking this and this cannot be good for the company in the long term

So in summary - FF from Pentax only if it "destroys" the current champs in all ways.

Well said dyls, my sentiments exactly. Pentax can do it, look at the surprise they sprung on us with the Kx. They are either going to move soon (2010?) or fade into the also rans or obscurity. Pentax, teamed with another company (which they have stated is their intention) will have the ability to be right up there with the best. But as many have pointed out in this thread it will probably have to be in conjunction with a new range of FF lenses. Maybe they are working to that end as we speak?

gazonk · 11-06-2009, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by ozlizard

But as many have pointed out in this thread it will probably have to be in conjunction with a new range of FF lenses. Maybe they are working to that end as we speak?

Who knows? They haven't issued a lens road map since march. My wishes for the next batch of lenses are more moderate: I'd like to see a 55-300 WR.

dycz · 11-08-2009, 10:08 PM

Next stop for pentax is improving the AF system before going FF.... and hopefully we can see it in the k-7 successor.

ogl · 11-08-2009, 10:33 PM

Yes. New AF-C system is in the work. I've heard about the same 11 AF points, but much improved AF-C with tracking.

*Ash* · 11-08-2009, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by gazonk

Who knows? They haven't issued a lens road map since march. My wishes for the next batch of lenses are more moderate: I'd like to see a 55-300 WR.

Mine aren't so moderate...
I'd love to see a 70-200/80-200 f/2.8 with WR!

lesmore49 · 11-08-2009, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by David

I have been wanting a ff for some time but as I get more and more impressed with the K20D IQ and general performance I find myself wondering why. I am now a purely private hobby photog and would have trouble justifying Aus$2000 at least outlay for a ff. In fact I am considering buying another K20D body are maybe a discounted K7 and opting out of the new camera market.

David

I'm in a similar boat as you David. I am retired , older (60), had Pentax SLR/DSLR equipment since '68.

I love digital and since a bit before I retired I have invested (is it really an 'investment' with camera equipment) relatively heavily. I have 2 bodies (K10D/ KM), 16-45, 10-17 Fisheye, 55-300, 50 1.4, 360 flash, battery grip, etc.

I occasionally shoot with a fellow who uses a Canon FF with a 17-40 L wide angle. His pictures are fabulous and to be honest with myself, his much more expensive Canon ...I think, but I'm not sure...must show better quality pix than my K10D and 16-45.

But the difference is not that great...if at all. I don't think I'm fooling myself.

I never blow up pix to more than 8 X 10 and when I look really carefully, I can't tell that much difference.

If I blew my pix up to 20 X 24...I have a feeling his pix would be better, but I'm not sure, as I haven't taken my pix to the same size.

Anyway if there is no significant difference at 8 X 10, probably even 11 X 14 then what do I need a FF for ?

Especially considering that I'm not young anymore. I have been thinking of waiting for the K7's successor. Reason for that is that the down market KX seems to have shown up the top of the line K 7 a bit.

I think there might be one, maybe two more top of the line bodies in my photog life and given that the FF isn't significantly better than my K10D or KM...I'm thinking I would stay with the APS-C format...but a top of the line Pentax...and then as you say David opting out of the new camera market.

I also have all these APS-c lenses which I quite like and have spent a fair chunk of $$$ on.

It might be different if I were 45 years of age. It might also be different if I was a professional, rather than an ardent amateur.

knoxploration · 11-09-2009, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by ogl

Yes. New AF-C system is in the work. I've heard about the same 11 AF points, but much improved AF-C with tracking.

Did you hear this rumor from the same place as your tales of a Pentax FF for "below $1500-1700" announced in 2010 with either a 14 or 24 megapixel sensor from either Sony or Samsung? ;-)

ogl · 11-09-2009, 02:44 AM

knoxploration · 11-09-2009, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by ogl

Oh, well that's obviously a definitive source then. The production values of that are way beyond Photoshop levels!

/of course, it says nothing about Pentax
//or DSLRs

Angevinn · 11-09-2009, 11:03 AM

It looks like Samsung is ready to produce their FF sensors. A rumor I read earlier this year said that Samsung had produced three FF sensors and was in the process of final testing them to see which would enter production. With Sony now producing affordable FF sensors (14.6 MP CMOS) I hope Samsung follows. The cost of the FF sensor was a major factor that kept the price of FF DSLR's so high. Now Sony and Nikon are said to be readying new FF DSLR's with prices around $1500 based on the new Sony 14.6 MP CMOS sensor. I'm anxious to see what the specs are on the Samsung sensor.

24X36NOW · 11-09-2009, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Angevinn

It looks like Samsung is ready to produce their FF sensors. A rumor I read earlier this year said that Samsung had produced three FF sensors and was in the process of final testing them to see which would enter production. With Sony now producing affordable FF sensors (14.6 MP CMOS) I hope Samsung follows. The cost of the FF sensor was a major factor that kept the price of FF DSLR's so high. Now Sony and Nikon are said to be readying new FF DSLR's with prices around $1500 based on the new Sony 14.6 MP CMOS sensor. I'm anxious to see what the specs are on the Samsung sensor.

I hope that they do come out with a new FF sensor and another FF camera with lower prices, but I have my doubts. I think the new 14.6MP CMOS sensor is going to be yet another (YAWN) APS-C sensor.