Default Camera RAW sharpening for K-7?

*Rich_A* · 10-02-2009, 10:54 PM

I'm curious what people use as their default setting for Camera RAW sharpening settings for the K-7. After fiddling with my settings for my limited lenses, I chose:

Amount: 75
Radius: 1
Detail: 25
Masking: 0

But I just got done reading the DPReview's review of the K-7 and saw that they were using a perhaps more logical:

Amount: 50
Radius: 1
Detail: 50
Masking: 0

After looking at the settings on my computer, I couldn't see a lot of difference which made me curious what other had been using.

*FHPhotographer* · 10-03-2009, 02:52 PM

I have the K20, but I think this is the same process... but I thought the default sharpening only applied to jpeg files. If you shoot RAW those in-camera settings don't apply and you have to use software, either in the original capture/conversion or in the post processing like Photoshop etc for sharpening. Did I get something wrong?
Brian

*Rich_A* · 10-03-2009, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by FHPhotographer

I have the K20, but I think this is the same process... but I thought the default sharpening only applied to jpeg files. If you shoot RAW those in-camera settings don't apply and you have to use software, either in the original capture/conversion or in the post processing like Photoshop etc for sharpening. Did I get something wrong?
Brian

The question is for Camera RAW, not in-camera processing.

*FHPhotographer* · 10-03-2009, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Rich_A

The question is for Camera RAW, not in-camera processing.

Sorry, misunderstood the question. In that case, I assume you're talking about the capture sharpening? And most of what I've read suggested not using RAW at all but doing the sharpening in photoshop or whatever PP program, and for that both 50 and 75 seem low,
Brian

*jbinpg* · 10-03-2009, 07:22 PM

USM settings will vary depending on the amount of cropping done on the image. The greater the crop, the less USM should be applied to avoid artefacts.

*Rich_A* · 10-03-2009, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by FHPhotographer

And most of what I've read suggested not using RAW at all but doing the sharpening in photoshop or whatever PP program, and for that both 50 and 75 seem low,
Brian

Brian, where have you read this? The foremost authorities on the subject (Jeff Schewe and Bruce Fraser, R.I.P.) had their capture sharpening algorithms incorporated into Camera RAW to specifically avoid having to do it as a separate step in Photoshop. I appreciate you posting a response but I'm not looking for conjecture but what people use as their default Camera RAW sharpening settings (assuming people have saved new defaults).

Originally Posted by jbinpg

The greater the crop, the less USM should be applied to avoid artefacts.

I'm referring to uncropped images.

*FHPhotographer* · 10-03-2009, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Rich_A

Brian, where have you read this? The foremost authorities on the subject (Jeff Schewe and Bruce Fraser, R.I.P.) had their capture sharpening algorithms incorporated into Camera RAW to specifically avoid having to do it as a separate step in Photoshop.

Don't know from foremost authorities, but it's not conjecture, although my information may need to be updated; I'm relying on several sources, including Martin Evening and Mikkel Aaland cited here:

"I recommend using the Smart Sharpen feature in Photoshop when... you have time and desire to perfect a particularly special image" Aland, Photoshop CS3 RAW, 150

"...capture sharpening must be done either in the RAW processing program or afterwards in Photoshop. Up until now recently most experts (myself included) were suggesting that you disable the sharpening in Camera Raw and use Photoshop to apply the capture sharpening." Evening, Photoshop CS4 for Photographers, 233

Evening does say, however, that Camera Raw 4.1 improved sharpening controls enough that it now "makes sense" to perform capture sharpening in RAW... and that's something I wasn't aware of. Now I have to find out what the "recommended" settings are for the K20, or it makes more sense to just keep on truckin' with Photoshop. Thanks for raising the question,
Brian

*Rich_A* · 10-05-2009, 07:18 AM

Brian, sorry for the crabby response I posted last time, it was late and I was tired. I appreciate the response. I have been using Camera RAW for a long time and have always kept a fairly modest amount of default sharpening but have recently added just a tweak more since shooting with the K-7. I think the extra megapixels are making pixel peeping a bit more demanding of the lenses.

I find that the 25% default sharpening is a bit on the soft side and that a stronger setting produces a better starting point. I'd be very surprised if this is uncharted territory for folks here but maybe people just aren't posting. Perhaps the post title should be "Capture Sharpening in Camera RAW: Why aren't we all taking advantage of it?"

Jeff Schewe just published Real World Image Sharpening with Adobe Photoshop, Camera Raw, and Lightroom. Maybe I should see what his new suggestions are for Capture Sharpening in Camera RAW.

*joeyc* · 10-05-2009, 07:52 AM

Rich,

While I don't have a K7, I find that these setting work great most of the time:

Amount: 85
Radius: 1
Detail: 25
Masking: 75

This would be for a general sharpen (web viewing, small prints). On larger prints, I tend to take a closer look at each image. To me, the masking function is very important. I notice a significant difference on some images (and on others, none). I find the K200D raw files to be reasonably sharp out of the camera. Obviously the K7 is a different file and what I am sharing may have no relevance.

*FHPhotographer* · 10-05-2009, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Rich_A

Brian, sorry for the crabby response I posted last time, it was late and I was tired. I appreciate the response. I have been using Camera RAW for a long time and have always kept a fairly modest amount of default sharpening but have recently added just a tweak more since shooting with the K-7. I think the extra megapixels are making pixel peeping a bit more demanding of the lenses.

I find that the 25% default sharpening is a bit on the soft side and that a stronger setting produces a better starting point. I'd be very surprised if this is uncharted territory for folks here but maybe people just aren't posting.

No apology necessary, I've been there. If you're interested, here's another current thread I started Sharpening problem... and it's getting me more confused as it goes along

Brian

*Rich_A* · 10-05-2009, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by joeyc

While I don't have a K7, I find that these setting work great most of the time:

Amount: 85
Radius: 1
Detail: 25
Masking: 75

This would be for a general sharpen (web viewing, small prints).

Thanks, Joe. That was the general info I was looking for the K-7. Hopefully some other shooters respond. Your settings look almost identical to what I was using. What I don't have a concrete grasp on is the difference between the use of Amount and Detail as it applies to the Capture Sharpening. The sum of each of the settings I was using was identical, just different knobs on the whirlygig machine.

Originally Posted by FHPhotographer

If you're interested, here's another current thread I started http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/p...ml#post764025I and it's getting me more confused as it goes along

Yeah, thanks for the link. I guess my question is pretty specific. I have a fairly routine PP process where I perform Capture Sharpening in Camera RAW. I've used ≤13MP cameras in the past and the K-7 is my first experience with a higher resolution sensor. I also notice a slight bit weaker AA filter with the Pentax and would expect that this is what is generating my higher default sharpening setting. When I noticed that DPReview was using a higher than default setting for their RAW settings as well, it sort of clicked in as an "Ah ha!" moment. I was curious what other experienced shooters were using.

Originally Posted by yourartnow

the camera shrping prob was as per the prose of that camera if u want more then pay more for tht.& get more shrap picture

Uhhhh.... mind making that a bit clearer?

davemdsn · 10-05-2009, 11:09 PM

There is a huge difference between capture sharpening and output sharpening. The former is to overcome the effects of the AA filter in front of the sensor. The latter where you make the image look the way you want it to look in the display, whether it's web, print, or whatever.

I have three presets for sharpening in my raw processor; low, medium and high. The high setting mimics the default sharpening in the in camera jpegs while the other two are progressively lower. Each image is evaluated to determine which, if any, of these presets is applied. If I don't do anything special with the images then that is all the sharpening I do. If I want to make a nice print then I go to Photoshop and selectively sharpen areas that need it.

I didn't mention the preset settings because I don't use ACR so they won't match the application being discussed here.

*FHPhotographer* · 10-06-2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by davemdsn

I have three presets for sharpening in my raw processor; low, medium and high. The high setting mimics the default sharpening in the in camera jpegs while the other two are progressively lower.

Don't want to hijack the thread, but how do one convert the camera sharpening settings (in the K20 that is a scaled range from -5 to +4 for Sharpness) into the percentage settings used for Amount and Detail in a RAW processor? Or even more obscure, how do you line up the camera scaled range with the .1 to 3.0 setting for Radius?
Brian

davemdsn · 10-06-2009, 03:18 PM

My process was completely visual. I did a RAW+jpeg image of a typical scene for me and opened both. I set the sharpness amount in the raw image until it looked close to the sharpness in the jpeg. This turned out to be more sharpening than I had previously been using on most of my work so it got labeled as "high". My "low" setting is basically the default setting for my workflow app and the medium is somewhere in between.

Which setting i use, if any, depends on how sharp the image is without sharpening and on what kind of scene it is. Again, this is only input sharpening so it should not be over done.

*FHPhotographer* · 10-07-2009, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by davemdsn

My process was completely visual. I did a RAW+jpeg image of a typical scene for me and opened both. I set the sharpness amount in the raw image until it looked close to the sharpness in the jpeg. This turned out to be more sharpening than I had previously been using on most of my work so it got labeled as "high". My "low" setting is basically the default setting for my workflow app and the medium is somewhere in between.

Which setting i use, if any, depends on how sharp the image is without sharpening and on what kind of scene it is. Again, this is only input sharpening so it should not be over done.

Interesting way of coming at the problem, I've got to try it. Makes sense (now) to use a visual approach to a visual problem. Thanks,
Brian