Lightroom Workflow Question

[Jim Royal]

There are still basic colour adjustments that I'm performing in Photoshop for which I suspect Lightroom would be able to handle just as well. But I'm still too addicted to Adjustment Layers to see another way of accomplishing the same thing.

For example, a typical case:

• I open a photo in Photoshop, and decide to do a B&W conversion. I use a Channel Mixer adjustment layer, and quickly cycle through Yellow/Orange/Red filters. I settle on Red.
  
• After looking at the result, I decide that the image would be a bit punchier if I increased the saturation before the B&W conversion. So I slip in a Hue/Sat adjustment layer underneath the Channel Mixer, and ramp up the Saturation.
  
• Hmmm. Better. Now for a little contrast adjustment with a Curves layer: I go back and forth as to whether I like the result of the Curves adjustment when it is placed above or below the other adjustment layers, and I settle on above.

This workflow should be possible entirely in Lightroom, as LR is a non-destructive editor. However, it seems to me that in order to get the same results as above, I cannot perform the experimentation as I described, as LR doesn't stack adjustments -- it just has a history.

Any thoughts?

[WMBP]

Originally Posted by Jim Royal

This workflow should be possible entirely in Lightroom, as LR is a non-destructive editor. However, it seems to me that in order to get the same results as above, I cannot perform the experimentation as I described, as LR doesn't stack adjustments -- it just has a history.

Jim,

I think you will find you can achieve the results you want in Lightroom - but you'll have to go about them differently.

I believe that the effects of various tools are applied in the order that you use them.

I like doing black and white conversions in Lightroom. I can approach the task several different ways. I can click the black and white conversion button and then use the color channels for black and white to make fine adjustments. Or I can skip the black and white conversion button and simply desaturate colors - and then I still access to other tools that do seem to make a difference (like vibrance, or hue).

Lots of power in Lightroom.

Will

[Eruditass]

I heard somewhere that the effects go from top to bottom - but am not sure, it would be pretty nice if they go in order as seen on the history panel. Someone should test this!

[junyo]

Originally Posted by Jim Royal

This workflow should be possible entirely in Lightroom, as LR is a non-destructive editor. However, it seems to me that in order to get the same results as above, I cannot perform the experimentation as I described, as LR doesn't stack adjustments -- it just has a history.

Any thoughts?

I would approach the same problem via:
1. Desaturate each color channel (or create a preset that does it)
2. Manipulate individual channel tones via the luminosity sliders
3. Access the global contrast via the contrast slider or directly adjust via the curves section of the CP.
4. Make a virtual copy and reset the original


The important thing/difference is most adjustments are live, independent and combined on the fly, i.e. if I want to see how the image would look in color I can reset the saturation on the color channels and it's now in color, w/o effecting the contrast/curves or luminosity adjustments.

[alohadave]

Originally Posted by Eruditass

I heard somewhere that the effects go from top to bottom - but am not sure, it would be pretty nice if they go in order as seen on the history panel. Someone should test this!

They apply bottom up. If you look while in the Develop pane, the Import event is always at the bottom. It doesn't really matter though, because most changes can be made simultaneaously.

When I do B&W conversions, I click Auto Adjust, Grayscale, adjust individual colors as desired, adjust my curve to a classical 'S'. That serves about 95% of my needs for B&W.

Even thought the order doesn't really matter, I do it the same way every time so I don't forget a step here or there.

[Jim Royal]

Originally Posted by WMBP

I think you will find you can achieve the results you want in Lightroom - but you'll have to go about them differently.

Of this, I have no doubt. I had a look at the Develop module with what you said in mind, and I realized that there is in fact no way to adjust the saturation of an image and then have that adjustment carry over into a black-and-white conversion. It's completely modal.

I'm going to have to do some serious experimentation to see if I can replicate in Lightroom the adjustments I prefer in Photoshop.

Originally Posted by WMBP

Lots of power in Lightroom.

Indeed. And having used it quite heavily for almost two years, i see I still haven't fully adjusted my thinking to the way it works.

[Marc Sabatella]

I don't know the exact order that LR performs its operations, but I'm almost positive it is always the same order - whatever LR deems "correct" - regardless of what order you actually change the sliders in. That's kind of one of the fundamentals thing about parametric image editing - it shouldn't matter what order you do things in; what matters is the parameters you use. So experiment all you want; LR will always do things in what it perceives to be the correct order.

[junyo]

Originally Posted by Jim Royal

Of this, I have no doubt. I had a look at the Develop module with what you said in mind, and I realized that there is in fact no way to adjust the saturation of an image and then have that adjustment carry over into a black-and-white conversion. It's completely modal.

Saturation is a measure of color. Once the image is desaturated, saturation is no longer a valid parameter of the image. Or rather, to get to B&W the saturation for all channels is set to value of 0, one way or another, which makes any prior saturation adjustments a moot point. For the way LR works, the changes would have to be converted to luma adjustments when the conversion occurred to retain the relative tone values, but even then it wouldn't be a direct mapping, which is why I think they don't bother.

[bpjod]

Here's a few good videos to get you started:
lightroom-news.com/2007/08/24/tips-for-better-black-and-white-conversions/
lightroom-news.com/2009/03/02/improved-grayscale-conversions/
www.lightroomkillertips.com/2006/black-and-whites/

[Jim Royal]

Originally Posted by junyo

…to get to B&W the saturation for all channels is set to value of 0, one way or another, which makes any prior saturation adjustments a moot point.

Not entirely. When desaturating an image using a tool like Photoshop's Channel Mixer or Lightroom's Grayscale panel, the saturation levels of the original image do affect the results of B&W conversion. In PS, adding a Saturation adjustment before using Channel Mixer does affect the range of gray values you have to work with.

In Lightroom, the logic is obviously different, as everything must be done in the Grayscale panel.

bpjod, thanks for the tutorial videos. I will take a look.

[junyo]

Originally Posted by Jim Royal

In Lightroom, the logic is obviously different, as everything must be done in the Grayscale panel.

Using the Grayscale panel is one method, but it gives less control and creates image noise. Using the Saturation sliders in the HSL panel is a much better method, with the caveat of losing any per channel saturation settings.

Adobe Photoshop Tutorial | Adobe Lightroom | Black and White | Develop Module | Layers Magazine

Also, I shouldn't have said the saturation values were set to 0, they're actually set to -100. I'm not trying to argue about it, but I think that will produce good results for you. That workflow has been a gamechanger for me.

[Frogroast]

In my experience, nothing described in the original post would deviate from LR's standard processes.

Why not just download the LR trial and give it a try?