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05-24-2010, 06:10 AM   #31
Voe
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
well if you're looking for smaller lenses then look no further (apart from the DA pancakes) range finders have half the flange distance of any SLR therefore their lenses are consequently much much smaller a 35mm f/1.4 on a SLR is twice the size of a similar lens made for a rangefinder.


ahh; I was waiting for someone to mention this "the Leica glow" I will point out that I have seen it in images made with a radioactive takumar 50mm f/1.4. To be honest the Leica glow is a difficult phenomena to explain but it does exist: even when looking at thumbnails in lightroom I can spot the difference between Voigtlander, Zeiss and Leica lenses on my RF, with pentax it's a bit trickier because pentax also goes for a warmer palette. and yes I was comparing the 43mm f/1.9 to the non ASPH version of the summilux 50mm f/1.4 - which is the version I prefer for rendering reasons - The same reason why I use the noctilux 50mm f/1.0 instead of upgrading to the f/0.95 version, Aspherical elements can have BAD effects on bokeh especially at maximum apertures.
I had the 21mm, 40mm and 70mm DA Limiteds, but they are not close to Leica small and fast aperture M lenses. Currently in Pentax land I'm satisfied with the three FA Limiteds but it's the colors in Leica that I like more.

I'm not sure what Leica glow is, but I suppose you mean the rendering when lens is wide open. I'm more interested in the way colors are presented/rendered at any aperture.


QuoteOriginally posted by Groucho Quote
You're lost with the M-mounts unless you go with a mirrorless digital camera, but the R-mounts can be easily adapted from what I understand. Leitax

I understand that you won't get a f0.95 Noctilux in R-mount but you can still get real Leica lenses and keep your current camera... or get 'em with Nikon mounts and put 'em on a D700 if you need FF digital right now... or just throw 'em on a K1000 and use the same film that you'd use in a Leica.
I already use Leica R lenses on my Pentax K7. Actually I started the Leica Lens Club on this forum.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/80029-leica-lens-club.html


QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Without pictures, this thread has no meaning. Show us what you are talking about.
These are images from Leica M Summilux 35mm f/1.4 from the this thread:
35 Summilux Aspherical in Iran ..... (imgs): Leica Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review















This is what I'm talking about. When I say Leica colors. By all means if anyone know of a plugin or a photoshop technique which can replicate this look, please let me know. It will save me and many others thousands of dollars.

05-24-2010, 06:58 AM   #32
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I guess I haven't the eye to see the Leica, you are talking about, in those photos Voe.

I don't really associate Leica with colour rendering as much as I do that 3D look that people talk about. That is something that is clearly identifiable and would be very hard to reproduce with post work. Colours can be altered or, if you wish, completely discarded.

This set, I found yesterday, on Flickr seems to do Leica some justice:

Leica M9 - a set on Flickr
05-24-2010, 07:19 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by fractal Quote
I guess I haven't the eye to see the Leica, you are talking about, in those photos Voe.

I don't really associate Leica with colour rendering as much as I do that 3D look that people talk about. That is something that is clearly identifiable and would be very hard to reproduce with post work. Colours can be altered or, if you wish, completely discarded.

This set, I found yesterday, on Flickr seems to do Leica some justice:

Leica M9 - a set on Flickr
As much I like the picures in the link you sent, the images there are noticably touched and it shows. What I see in the images I posted is rich "untouched"? colors in a unique way. Mind you both Pentax and Zeiss lenses provide well defined 3D images with many of their lenses they provide a different color rendering, and I'm not talking about bokeh.

To me Pentax provides more natural and balanced colors, Zeiss has a great contrast boost in it's colors which are also slightly cold, but Leica's colors are different that the other two, they appear to me warmer, rich, and kind of "romantic"? I don't really have the words to explain exactly what I mean so the above is the closest what I see.
Maybe it's all subjective and on a subconscious level.

As far as the possibility of colors being altered on, it often shows that it's touched in a unnatural way. If you have a techniqie to alter the image colors to match what I showed as an example above please let me know.
05-24-2010, 08:04 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Voe Quote
I already use Leica R lenses on my Pentax K7. Actually I started the Leica Lens Club on this forum.
I've looked at it several times, thanks for the posts in there - it is nice to see how they look on a Pentax body.

I'm not very familiar with Leica's various offerings (why torture myself? I can't justify the expenditure )... is there something magical about the M-mounts versus the R-mounts? Obviously the rangefinder is going to be a different beast, but if the theory is that the lenses themselves are so special, shouldn't the R-mounts be that way, too? They certainly seem to be if the reviews are to be believed. It seems like, if you're lusting for Leicas to the point that you're considering investing in the entire setup, it would be a cheaper/safer option to pick up some R-mounts, convert them, and essentially "have your cake and eat it too" - keep the K-7 and choose from Limiteds, Leicas, Zeisses, and Voigtlanders, all in K-mounts.

05-24-2010, 08:18 AM   #35
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colors are great Voe. they don't appear muted and are very much balanced, natural and true-to-life. I think I know what you mean. although I agree that the LTD's are great as well. they give that certain pop to the images due to their color rendering. this is the difference between the 2, I believe. I wouldn't having both lenses for certain tastes.
05-24-2010, 05:58 PM   #36
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If I was in your position, I would sell only what you need to buy an M mount film body and your most coveted Leica lens first, and keep the rest of your gear as it is. That way you would be able to see if the qualities you see in Leica, but not in other gear, is really there. If you see that it is, you could ditch the rest of your Pentax gear and go totally Leica. Plus, you'll have some time to save up, while still using the Leica stuff.

Of course, that requires using film, but you could also substitute an M8 for a film body, at a higher price of course.
05-24-2010, 06:29 PM   #37
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film isn't a bad thing. b&w processing is a breeze, and even if you don't want to do that or don't have a scanner there are good processors of c41 film who are not expensive and do a good job. I am thinking of dwayne's who I use. one body, one lens can go a long way.
05-24-2010, 06:35 PM   #38
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Sorry to be the agnostic here, but I just don't see it. The pictures are lovely to be sure, but I am not seeing anything beyond the beauty of pictures people have posted using Limited lenses, or a kit lens for that matter. I guess I would have to see the same image taken with a Leica lens and a different lens with the same aperture and postprocessing.

Sorry but we are off on one of my "peaves." People talk of "rendering," "microcontrast," "3D effect," "color," etc. etc. of lenses in so many threads for so many years, but I have never seen an exact image comparison with a different lens to show the lack of these qualities, or even variations in these specific qualities from lens to lens.

To me, in the digital age, the only criteria that matters with regards to lenses are sharpness and abberations. Everything else is more affected by hardware and software processing after the photons hit the sensor.

05-24-2010, 09:25 PM   #39
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Compared to shooting with a DSLR, using a rangefinder is a remarkable relief. I find the simplicity of photography again. Thinking of the image I am trying to capture instead of what my camera is trying to do. Or worst, not caring because I choose to use my DSLR as a way too big P&S.

Again, I agree this can be captured by and large using a manual slr body. If I ignore the meter in my MX I am almost there. A classic M is a piece of art in itself though.
05-24-2010, 09:40 PM   #40
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Actually Voe, the colors in those photos you posted remind me quite a bit of the colors the FA31 produces. This said, the Summicron 35 f/1.4 is a great lens, and if the colors are different enough for you and you have the money, why not go for it?

Me, I'm not wealthy enough to own Leica, even though I'd like to. I'll wait around until Pentax comes out with an M9 for us, or I'll go crazy and convert my Limiteds to the EOS mount, whichever comes first.
05-25-2010, 01:58 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Sorry to be the agnostic here, but I just don't see it. The pictures are lovely to be sure, but I am not seeing anything beyond the beauty of pictures people have posted using Limited lenses, or a kit lens for that matter. I guess I would have to see the same image taken with a Leica lens and a different lens with the same aperture and postprocessing.

Sorry but we are off on one of my "peaves." People talk of "rendering," "microcontrast," "3D effect," "color," etc. etc. of lenses in so many threads for so many years, but I have never seen an exact image comparison with a different lens to show the lack of these qualities, or even variations in these specific qualities from lens to lens.

To me, in the digital age, the only criteria that matters with regards to lenses are sharpness and abberations. Everything else is more affected by hardware and software processing after the photons hit the sensor.
I hate the description of the "3D effect", I think what people are really describing is the DOF helps make the subject pop out from the image.

Leica lenses are good because they are sharp at every aperture, and have very low distortion. Seeing as I shoot mostly B&W, and most of the great Leica uses of the past also shot in B&W, I've never really associated Leica with particularity pleasing colour palette. The best way to really see how good Leica glass is, run some film through it, shooting only wide open, then enlarge the prints to 16x20 inchs.
05-25-2010, 02:21 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
I have never seen an exact image comparison with a different lens to show the lack of these qualities, or even variations in these specific qualities from lens to lens
There are a few here. A thread that Voe started.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/78029-melbourn...omparison.html

The camera body has an effect on the colour of the images also no?
05-25-2010, 12:16 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by fractal Quote
There are a few here. A thread that Voe started.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/78029-melbourn...omparison.html

The camera body has an effect on the colour of the images also no?
Sure, there are lots and lots of bokeh comparisons all over the web. But what I never see are comparisons of the terms that people like to throw around about lens performance like they are tasting wine or something: "microcontrast," "rendering," "3D effect, "color rendition," etc. etc.

I agree with Cosmo. I think sometimes people see a shot which is perfectly focused, sharp, full of color, and has a shallow DOF, and think that is some inherent unique ability of that lens to produce that image, when it depends more on all the other factors.

Again, a modern lens just needs to be sharp and free of distortions. Everything else depends much more on the camera and the data processing algorithms chosen by the camera company. Don't believe that? Take a given lens and mount it to a Pentax, Canon, and Nikon, and take the same picture. Even in RAW, you will see far more differences in how color is rendered, than you will see between lenses.

Last edited by PentaxPoke; 05-25-2010 at 12:22 PM.
05-25-2010, 12:55 PM   #44
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Just recently sold my Chrome Leica MP, a Mint tabbed 50mm Summicon in Chrome and a Chrome 90mm Elmarit-M and a bunch of accessories and bought a Black MX in mint condition and a couple of M lenses and a K7 with the kit lens for less than I sold the Leica body for. It was the second Leica that I've owned. had an M6 too. While the Leica is a very nice camera the cost of adding new glass was just getting to expensive. I wanted a 35mm Summicron and a 24mm Elmarit and I was looking at 5-6 thousand used. Love Leica but just decide it was just too much money for the results.
05-25-2010, 06:32 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Sure, there are lots and lots of bokeh comparisons all over the web. But what I never see are comparisons of the terms that people like to throw around about lens performance like they are tasting wine or something: "microcontrast," "rendering," "3D effect, "color rendition," etc. etc.
I just went to find a thread I made comparing the FA* an A* 85mm lenses in which I posted a set of comparison photos. In the pictures, which were adjusted to be at the same white balance, there was clearly a difference in color rendition. It can even be seen in thumbnail sized pictures. Unfortunately I recently deleted the pictures from my flickr.

In the comparison photos, taken of the exact same scene, on a tripod, in the exact same spot for both lenses, I could also see a definite difference in sharpness, due to microcontrast.

When I decided to sell one of the lenses, I used those comparison photos as a means of deciding which one it would be. The color rendition of the A* just couldn't compare to that of the FA*, even though it was the absolute king of microcontrast .

All of that said, that was a direct comparison of 2 similar lenses on the same camera, with the pictures taken only a few minutes apart. I think comparing dissimilar pictures, taken on different cameras, in different conditions is almost completely useless. It can be fun though.
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