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06-06-2010, 07:30 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
But not as much as constant f/2.8 throughout zoom range
Yes, I do like that constant f/2.8 myself, but I probably would've bought the 16-45mm if it wasn't for the reverse extending zoom. That's still perplexing me as to why they would do that. The last thing you want is for a wide angle zoom lens to stick out the furthest when when at 16mm. Oh, well. I don't pretend to completely understand the engineering behind lens construction, so I'm sure there's some reason. Unfortunately, it also ends up being the reason why I won't buy that lens...haha.

06-06-2010, 07:37 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmgabe Quote
Interesting to see, but I can't help but notice that the Sigma in question 18-50mm f2.8 EX isn't even listed on their site, so hard to really put it into perspective. Over on Fredmiranda, users only separate the two by a few tenths of a point, placing the Tamron slightly higher.

Like I said earlier, I haven't used either, just basing my opinion on experiences with other lenes. The Tamron does appear to be a great lens, but so does the Sigma. I am sure Chris will be more than pleased with the Sigma when it arrives.
Sigma and Tamron are close enough (for me) that it's mostly other factors that dictate my buying decisions. Even minor things like not liking the zoom grip pattern on one or the other, or one includes a hood or soft case but the other doesn't, or even ridiculously minor things like one has a purple decorative band around the barrel and I don't like purple.

My decision this time was purely based on availability and price. I wanted to buy used and couldn't find any used Tamron 17-50mm (that weren't priced the same as new). If I wanted to buy new, I would've bought the Tamron because the Sigma 18-50mm f/2.8 is out of stock everywhere that I looked, but the Tamron is in stock (and apparently still being manufactured).

I wish I could've found either lens in the PentaxForums Marketplace -- the used item trust factor there is significantly better than Adorama, B&H, KEH, and eBay. If nothing else, it allows me to conclude that both are likely good lenses so they're so difficult to find used -- people must be holding on to them!
06-06-2010, 12:26 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Internetpilot Quote
Yes, I do like that constant f/2.8 myself, but I probably would've bought the 16-45mm if it wasn't for the reverse extending zoom. That's still perplexing me as to why they would do that.
Do you know of wide-telephoto lenses (other than internal zoom) that *don't* do that? Seems that's the nature way these things work. Why is that such a problem?
06-06-2010, 12:28 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Internetpilot Quote
my numerous searches turned up nothing on this subject, when searching the SLR Lens forum, as well as searching the entire site. It doesn't seem to be possible to do minimalistic searches (like "18-55" or "replace kit lens"), because no results are found.
I agree that doing searches is a hit or miss affair, since every thread on the topic will be worded differently. But simply browsing the list of topics works pretty well - the topic comes up often enough that there's probably a hit every other page or so.

06-06-2010, 02:00 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmgabe Quote
Interesting to see, but I can't help but notice that the Sigma in question 18-50mm f2.8 EX isn't even listed on their site, so hard to really put it into perspective. Over on Fredmiranda, users only separate the two by a few tenths of a point, placing the Tamron slightly higher.

Like I said earlier, I haven't used either, just basing my opinion on experiences with other lenes. The Tamron does appear to be a great lens, but so does the Sigma. I am sure Chris will be more than pleased with the Sigma when it arrives.
I think the Sigma might have been released after the Tamron and it never caught up. You're the first person I find that owns one and recommends it

I believe they are both a significant upgrade over kit zooms that people are very happy with it and don't look back.
06-06-2010, 05:11 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Do you know of wide-telephoto lenses (other than internal zoom) that *don't* do that? Seems that's the nature way these things work. Why is that such a problem?
It's a problem because of lens shadow. I don't always have my external flash with me.

In my limited experience, most mid-range priced wide angle zooms are actually like the 18-55 kit lens -- they extend fully at wide angle and then again at full zoom and then fully retract somewhere in the middle. I can use the onboard flash with a lens that does that. The 16-45mm sticks way out there at 16mm and then retracts fully at 45mm, making it impossible to use the onboard flash at full wide angle. I realize it's not a problem for everyone, but it is for me.

I still don't understand the logic behind the design -- every point-n-shoot camera on the face of the planet (even wide angle ones) have a lens that extends only when the camera zooms. Why would a DSLR lens need to be different?
06-06-2010, 05:19 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
...and this was just what I got from the first few pages out of MANY when I used the search term "kit lens upgrade". There are dozens more, but this can be a good start.
Don't know what to tell you. I searched for the exact same thing, as well as many other key words, and turned up with nothing.

I just tried "kit lens upgrade" myself and turned up numerous posts. Tried the same thing a second time and got "No results found" or something similar. I get the same inconsistencies when searching the market place for specific lenses that I know are for sale (like searching for "17-70").

Somethings not working right, but sorry for raising the subject again. Trust me, I'm typically a lurker on most forums and would rather find existing threads than start my own. If it's a popular subject and the search function is inconsistent, perhaps it should be made a sticky thread in the SLR Lens Discussion forum?

06-06-2010, 06:04 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Internetpilot Quote
It's a problem because of lens shadow. I don't always have my external flash with me.
Ah, I see. I virtually never use flash, and in the rare cases I do, never for extreme wide angle.

QuoteQuote:
In my limited experience, most mid-range priced wide angle zooms are actually like the 18-55 kit lens -- they extend fully at wide angle and then again at full zoom and then fully retract somewhere in the middle. I can use the onboard flash with a lens that does that. The 16-45mm sticks way out there at 16mm and then retracts fully at 45mm, making it impossible to use the onboard flash at full wide angle.
Ah, again. I thought you meant the simple fact that it extends *at all* for wide angle. Like I said, most wide-tele zooms for DSLR's do that, but not necessary by more than they do at telephoto.

QuoteQuote:
I still don't understand the logic behind the design -- every point-n-shoot camera on the face of the planet (even wide angle ones) have a lens that extends only when the camera zooms. Why would a DSLR lens need to be different?
Probably something to do with the registration distance (wide angle require a reverse telephoto design or something like that) and the constant aperture feature.
06-06-2010, 06:53 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Internetpilot Quote
Sigma and Tamron are close enough (for me) that it's mostly other factors that dictate my buying decisions. Even minor things like not liking the zoom grip pattern on one or the other, or one includes a hood or soft case but the other doesn't, or even ridiculously minor things like one has a purple decorative band around the barrel and I don't like purple.

My decision this time was purely based on availability and price. I wanted to buy used and couldn't find any used Tamron 17-50mm (that weren't priced the same as new). If I wanted to buy new, I would've bought the Tamron because the Sigma 18-50mm f/2.8 is out of stock everywhere that I looked, but the Tamron is in stock (and apparently still being manufactured).

I wish I could've found either lens in the PentaxForums Marketplace -- the used item trust factor there is significantly better than Adorama, B&H, KEH, and eBay. If nothing else, it allows me to conclude that both are likely good lenses so they're so difficult to find used -- people must be holding on to them!
Probably the best review of the Tamron 17-50:

Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 SP XR Review by Thom Hogan

Between Sigma (and I've had a dud from them) and Tamron, you have your hits and misses. The original 10-20 Sigma's had terrible problems, since corrected. With 3rd party companies it is probably best not to buy a first gen product. Generally, the Tamron is rated higher on comparative websites than the Sigma. It sells very well, holds its resale value as this Forum will attest, and it's been in production awhile. Their 90 Macro is a gem. Tamron can make a terrific lens, and this is one.

The 16-45 is also a very nice lens, and OEM. You are right, at 16mm with the onboard flash you can get shading. I tried this lens a well as the 17-70SDM. The reverse wide angle system is considered optically very efficient and less costly I assume, which is why this design usually is cheaper. Is it a show stopper? Hard to say. That extra 1mm is nice, but a stopped down 2.8 constant is super-sharp at 5.6 which is a classic portrait aperture. Bokeh is excellent. That's why I went with the Tamron.
06-06-2010, 07:29 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
That extra 1mm is nice, but a stopped down 2.8 constant is super-sharp at 5.6 which is a classic portrait aperture. Bokeh is excellent. That's why I went with the Tamron.
I'd like to see a resolution test of the Tamron in Pentax mount. I'm sure it's sharp at f5.6, but so are the DA 16-45 and 17-70. Other than some FF/BF concerns with the 17-50, the only other criticism I've heard of is the onion-ring bokeh. I've seen examples of bad bokeh from this lens, but it seems to be situational, not consistently present.
06-07-2010, 04:47 AM   #57
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If you selected the Tamron 17-50/2.8, I think you'd see a remarkable improvement over your kit lens. I love mine, no bad bokeh, under exposure, and nice from 2.8 and up.

Jason
06-07-2010, 05:25 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The 16-45 is also a very nice lens, and OEM. You are right, at 16mm with the onboard flash you can get shading. I tried this lens a well as the 17-70SDM. The reverse wide angle system is considered optically very efficient and less costly I assume, which is why this design usually is cheaper. Is it a show stopper? Hard to say. That extra 1mm is nice, but a stopped down 2.8 constant is super-sharp at 5.6 which is a classic portrait aperture. Bokeh is excellent. That's why I went with the Tamron.
I'm definitely having a hard time finding the Tamron 17-50mm used (especially for anything other than a "new" price).

The reviews I read of the 16-45mm mentioned the reverse zoom as if they were surprised because they said that typically only high end wide angle zooms are designed/constructed this way. If that's the case, I can understand why no one complains about it much since most people who can afford high end wide angle zooms (which are typically rather pricey) are pros (or at least photography elitists) who would never use the onboard flash, even in a pinch. Me? You wouldn't find a "high end" anything in my camera bag (unless I found it on the ground and put it in my bag on the way to turn it in to the Lost & Found department).

Okay, maybe my Giottos Rocket bulb blower is considered the high end of bulb blowers. And I do have a Gary Fong Lightsphere Cloud, which is considered the high end of butter tubs. Well, I guess I've corrected myself a little on the "high end" contents of my camera bag....
06-07-2010, 08:12 AM - 1 Like   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Internetpilot Quote
This is good to hear. I heard to Google search for the Adorama used product return policy, and found a discussion about it in 3rd party forum where an Adorama employee responded to a similar question. I can't find the policy (for used items) anywhere on their site! And that's a shame, because they seem to have a very good return policy for used products, and I'm sure would sell more if people knew that. I love buying online, love buying used (in other words, cheaper) even more, but not being able to find an obviously stated return policy can be a bit disconcerting.

-- Chris


Our used department return policy is as follows: if you are dissatisfied with your purchase, you may return it within 14 days of receipt for an exchange or refund.
You are also covered for 90 days from receipt of an item, to return it for repair or exchange if required.

If you wish to return the item, you may do so; however in order that we are able to expedite your return, we would request that you:

1) enclose a copy of the invoice
2) describe the reason for return
3) confirm whether you require a repair, exchange or a credit.

If you prefer an exchange, we can either:
1) process a new order immediately, charge you and send it out right away - and refund the original charge upon safe receipt of the return at our warehouse, or
2) wait for safe receipt of the return, and apply the credit to your replacement order.



If you require a credit, please allow up to 8 days processing time from the date of receipt into our warehouse.

Our return address is:
Order Processing
7 Slater Drive
Elizabeth, NJ 07206
06-07-2010, 08:14 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Internetpilot Quote
Alright...I found a used Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 EX from Adorama for $304 supposedly in excellent condition. We'll see. I'm mostly worried about the accuracy of the rating from Adorama.
If you email me directly: helen.oster@adoramacamera.com, I can have pictures of the lens emailed back to you!
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