Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-09-2010, 07:23 AM - 1 Like   #31
Dan
Senior Member




Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 237
Prices of fast 24mm lenses

As others have noted, one of the most important uses for a fast wide angle is to limit the depth of field so as to isolate the subject. A narrow depth of field is difficult to achieve with a wide angle lens. Canon, Nikon, and Leica all understand that to get a really narrow depth of field at 24mm, an f-stop of 1.4 is needed, and so they provide this option to their users. But at what price? Using B&H as a reference:

Nikkor 24mm f/1.4G ED - $2,200
Canon EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM - $1,580
and just for fun: Leica 24mm f/1.4 Summilux-M Aspherical - $6,495

My guess is that a Pentax offering would be priced similarly to the Nikon.

These lenses also impose an added cost in terms of a huge weight penalty:

Nikkor 24mm f/1.4G ED - 21.9 oz (620 g)
Canon EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM - 23.9 oz (650 g)

Given the size of these monsters, many of us would also want a slower version to carry around for those times when we don't need the speed and want to reduce the weight. It gets expensive in a hurry. Many (most?) Pentax users are cheapskates. How many would buy such a lens? Of course an f/2 version would cost much less, but it would still be far more expensive (and heavier) than an f/2.4, with relatively little benefit. And some users would still whine. ("Why can't we get a really fast 24mm lens like Nikon and Canon users!?")

Pentax is not trying to be all things to all photographers. Some people who are willing to spend a lot on their hobby use Pentax, but it is usually in addition to Nikon or Canon. If you want a lightweight kit with a few sharp primes for travel or hiking, grab your Pentax kit. If you want to shoot at f/1.4 with a wide angle, grab your Nikon or Canon. Are people who want a comprehensive system with the full range of lenses (and other accessories) really going to go exclusively with Pentax? Not bloody likely.

It seems to me that Pentax is on the right track. They need to keep their focus on those things that distinguish themselves from Nikon and Canon, rather than trying to build complete systems that match every offering from the big two.

Dan

10-09-2010, 08:03 AM   #32
Senior Member




Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 149
Again, Pentax I am sure is not in business to sell Canon or Nikon companion kits just as they do not intend on selling Sigma lenses. Right now there are zero 24mm options from Pentax. We are asking for an f2 lens, f1.4 is a dream and as you correctly state, a significant one at that when you consider the potential cost, and if the best we can get is f2.4, at least we will have a Pentax option.
10-09-2010, 08:18 AM   #33
Forum Member




Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: slovenia
Posts: 50
there is indeed and older sigma lineup 20/24/28 1.8, they are also monsters with around 500g (and filters 82mm on 20 and 77 on other two), but quite affordable at about 500-600usd...
10-09-2010, 10:14 AM   #34
Veteran Member
Pentaxor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,513
QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
How much would be a reasonable price for such a lens as the 'DA 28/2'? * or no *?
I could see Pentax listening to a large group of Pentaxians who really wanted a lens like this for a price they could comfortably make a profit from...
a reasonable price would be around $700, but I doubt it would be an f2. it would most likely be an f2.4 or f2.8. pricing is based upon the DA21, a used FA*24, Sigma 24 and other 24mm primes in other brands as reference. as well as possible IQ and material built.

although this is kinda tricky of of which market or pentax users are being targeted by Pentax here, since the DA21 is around to somehow close the gap between fixed focal length primes (e.g. DA15, DA21, DA24?, FA31, DA35). if Pentax ever makes one, it would most likely logical that it would discontinue the DA21, if they decide to make a similar pancake type 24mm DA lens, or build an FA LTD version which maybe as big or a bit smaller than the FA31 but would cost at a hefty price.

10-09-2010, 10:22 AM   #35
Veteran Member
Pentaxor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,513
QuoteOriginally posted by NaClH2O Quote
rover, I think the the main problem is that Pentax prolly doesn't think that a fast 24 will sell well enough to justify the R&D expense. First of all you have to distinguish the Pentax fast 24 from the Sigma. That means making it smaller. Smaller = more expensive. So how many Pentax shooters will go for a DA 24mm f2.0 @ 750USD or more? I'm betting not many. I'm sure Pentax thinks so too. Sigma can get away with it because they can make the lens in all the different mounts, not just Pentax. So the R&D costs can get spread around more.
Actually I think Pentax would be better served with a new DA* 135 or 150 with an aperture of F2.8 or below. I think more would be willing to put their had earned cash towards that focal lenght range.

NaCl(just my 2 cents)H2O

Yes, a 135mm or 150mm would be much of a lucrative offering rather than a DA24. a 24mm would be just too close in the prime wide angle lineup and could possibly cannibalize the DA21 sales unless Pentax will discontinue the DA21 production in favor of a DA24. Pentax is clearly missing some 135 on it's line-up. although there are a lot of cheap Pentax mf 135 out there available and could do the job just as well, Pentax lack an updated version of such focal length, much so AF version which is a necessity for such focal length. I'm glad that I have an AF 135, but I can feel how people are feeling without having one since the lens is practically not that readily available or discontinued.
10-09-2010, 10:23 AM   #36
Veteran Member
Pentaxor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,513
QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Quote
As others have noted, one of the most important uses for a fast wide angle is to limit the depth of field so as to isolate the subject. A narrow depth of field is difficult to achieve with a wide angle lens. Canon, Nikon, and Leica all understand that to get a really narrow depth of field at 24mm, an f-stop of 1.4 is needed, and so they provide this option to their users. But at what price? Using B&H as a reference:

Nikkor 24mm f/1.4G ED - $2,200
Canon EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM - $1,580
and just for fun: Leica 24mm f/1.4 Summilux-M Aspherical - $6,495

My guess is that a Pentax offering would be priced similarly to the Nikon.

These lenses also impose an added cost in terms of a huge weight penalty:

Nikkor 24mm f/1.4G ED - 21.9 oz (620 g)
Canon EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM - 23.9 oz (650 g)


Given the size of these monsters, many of us would also want a slower version to carry around for those times when we don't need the speed and want to reduce the weight. It gets expensive in a hurry. Many (most?) Pentax users are cheapskates. How many would buy such a lens? Of course an f/2 version would cost much less, but it would still be far more expensive (and heavier) than an f/2.4, with relatively little benefit. And some users would still whine. ("Why can't we get a really fast 24mm lens like Nikon and Canon users!?")

Pentax is not trying to be all things to all photographers. Some people who are willing to spend a lot on their hobby use Pentax, but it is usually in addition to Nikon or Canon. If you want a lightweight kit with a few sharp primes for travel or hiking, grab your Pentax kit. If you want to shoot at f/1.4 with a wide angle, grab your Nikon or Canon. Are people who want a comprehensive system with the full range of lenses (and other accessories) really going to go exclusively with Pentax? Not bloody likely.

It seems to me that Pentax is on the right track. They need to keep their focus on those things that distinguish themselves from Nikon and Canon, rather than trying to build complete systems that match every offering from the big two.

Dan
these are exactly my thoughts.
10-09-2010, 10:27 AM   #37
Veteran Member
Pentaxor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,513
QuoteOriginally posted by jane7l Quote
there is indeed and older sigma lineup 20/24/28 1.8, they are also monsters with around 500g (and filters 82mm on 20 and 77 on other two), but quite affordable at about 500-600usd...
true, but they don't seem to satisfy what Pentax users need or want in terms of IQ. the price though fits the bill of a typical Pentax user's budget. personally, I could had acquired a Sigma 24 and Sigma 28 for the price, but I'm not that really impressed by their rendering.
10-09-2010, 08:21 PM   #38
Pentaxian
Nick Siebers's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Madison, WI
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,139
I have an older version of the sigma 28/1.8 that is much smaller than the current version. I am not sold on its IQ yet, although occasionally I get a very nice shot from it. The Sigma Super Wide II AF, (24/2.8) on the other hand, is a little gem. I formerly had a similar Vivitar 24/2.8 in PKA mount that was very functional. Small, close focusing, very nice IQ. And all these cover 35mm, too. Maybe Pentax could buy out one of these old discontinued designs! I know that would never happen, but why not a novel 24mm? Compact or fast, either way, they would sell some.

10-09-2010, 08:27 PM   #39
Veteran Member
Pentaxor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,513
QuoteOriginally posted by Nick Siebers Quote
I have an older version of the sigma 28/1.8 that is much smaller than the current version. I am not sold on its IQ yet, although occasionally I get a very nice shot from it. The Sigma Super Wide II AF, (24/2.8) on the other hand, is a little gem. I formerly had a similar Vivitar 24/2.8 in PKA mount that was very functional. Small, close focusing, very nice IQ. And all these cover 35mm, too. Maybe Pentax could buy out one of these old discontinued designs! I know that would never happen, but why not a novel 24mm? Compact or fast, either way, they would sell some.
I had the older mf version of the Sigma Super Wide II 24/2.8. Yes, I think that was only of the very few old Sigmas that are of real value. I think I sold mine for a $100. it went out quickly. the new Sigma 24/1.8 is a hard sell though, even in the used arena. saw one going for $200 and not one person got interested on it.
10-09-2010, 10:50 PM   #40
Veteran Member
stillshunter's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southern Tablelands NSW
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 404
Original Poster
Well I'm all for Pentax forging it's own path, God knows if Canikon had it right we probably wouldn't all be sitting around this forum now. Of course, we can put this down to personal preference, but one I seem to share with photographers many times over. For my style of shooting, I have no reason for zooms, however I do like the choice of some solid primes. These would include (in 135 format terms):

ultrawide: in the 20-24mm range (thank you DA15 ...see I'm not asking Pentax to match the Leica 21 & 24 @ 2.8 or even 1.4!)
wide: in the 30-40 range
normal: in the 45-55 range (currently happy with the DA35...still not quite sure how much happier I might be with the FA31 )
short tele: in the 70-90 range (so much to choose from, I have a harvest of fine fast fifties and/or maybe even stretch a little longer and/or complement with a DA70-FA77mm).

Maybe I'm a little stuck in the old days, but this is a pretty regular spread in the Leica, Zeiss, etc. circles...with the 21-24/35/50/75-90 line-up. I can work-around with the majority except the 35mm. Now I'm not insane, there is a reason why folks (like me) like that FoV. It is comfortable and just feels natural.

My bottom-line here wasn't to rile folks up or utter a blasphemy against Pentax. I am only lamenting a big yawning gap in my bag. Jeez, if I wanted to really put the cat amongst the pigeons I would have asked for a modern lens that approximates the Noctilux 50mm f0.95 ASPH!

So I've ordered an MF Kiron 24mm f2. I know, it's not the best but it comes closest so far., in the face of my available options I mean even a DA24/2.8 would be a good start.

Last edited by stillshunter; 10-09-2010 at 11:03 PM.
10-10-2010, 04:21 AM   #41
axl
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nove Zamky, Slovakia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,181
QuoteOriginally posted by NaClH2O Quote
In this whole thread I saw only one mention of this lens. It's a very nice lens, with only one big flaw, it's big. It's also a bit flare prone but if you equip it with a good "normal" hood that problem is pretty much eliminated. The IQ is excellent, my onliest complaint in that dept is the quality of the bokeh, but that is a subjective judgement in any event. If you are pining for a fast 24mm here is one that is in production, good to excellent IQ, and can be had for about 500USD.

NaCl(but it ain't small)H2O
I had the chance to compare it to FA*24. It was the same as comparing K/A24/2.8 and Sigma 24/2.8 Super Wide. The Sigmas are sharper but contrast and overall rendering lacks compared to SMC glass. Now throw the bigger size into the mix and winner is clear. IMHO

QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
it's a very good lens, but not excellent. surely it is an alternative for the missing 24mm Pentax prime. the reasons for not cutting it for me is it's pointless wide open performance and color. and the IQ rendering all over the image. I prefer some solid rendering at the corners at this focal length as well. complaint I have with the Pentax 24/2 is it's weak performance at wide open. this is why I think that a 24/2.8 would be most likely more logical, because producing the same lens with a blah wide open performance wouldn't make any sense.
the wide open performance of FA*24 is something that has kept me off the lens for a while. Now that I have it, I can conclude it's a myth or bollocks at best! This lens is just fine wide open. It's the same as 50/1.2. Many say it's soft, but the lens perfectly usable. And 24 is no different, when correctly focused the lens is great. Corner softness? Well you would expect it at 24mm and shallow f stops, so yes at f2-2.8 the corners are soft(er) but not horribly so. Still usable, and by corners I really mean corners (on APSC) I'm not fan of a brick wall tests but I think I'll have to do one to address this "badmouthing"
on a quick note, these are all at f2, so that much for the weak performance wide open:







now before you say they are web sized images so it's hard to judge anything, just ask yourself how often you watch, publish, print or do whatever bigger than web size....let's be real here, I don't print or show pics at 100% but if you want I'd happily provide some samples


QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
The reality is most people nowadays opt for the convenience of zooms over primes. If Pentax were to ever produce a superlative wide angle zoom like the Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8G ED, most of us wouldn't even be discussing about a 24mm prime of f/2.8. There is the DA* 16-50mm f/2.8 SDM that covers the focal range but given that many are spooked by the SDM gremlins (whether real or not) means limited options.
yes we would, why? Zooms are big (or at least bigger than primes) are let's face it, zoom still needs to make compromise in optical performance between different focal lengths, prime DOESN'T....

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
If affordability was not the issue, most of those who would opt for a 24mm prime lens wouldn't really be interested in anything at f/2.8 but would steer towards a fast lens of stellar optical performance best exemplified by the Nikon 24mm f/1.4G ED. I dare say this lens easily trumps the discontinued FA* 24mm f/2. Unfortunately even if one were to be a rich Pentaxian (a misnomer if ever I saw one ), you can't buy such a lens because Pentax doesn't make one. Simply put, Pentax has not rolled out any professional grade fast maximum aperture lenses for the longest time. Even with the increase in the user base, I have my doubts that Pentax will ever do a 24mm f/2 or faster lens. But I would be happy to be proved wrong.
It's the same as DA*55. If the new 24 would be DA*24/2 (ok I'd settle for 2.4) I'd happily pay the same of 50-100 more than for FA*. Why? WR, SDM, and WARRANTY! with old lenses you are on your own. I just have K50/1.2 at repairers because the filter ring just fell off, literally! With new lens I'd take it back to shop, wave my warranty card around, problem sorted... besides, looking at 55/1.4 currently going for 550, I don't think the 24 would be all that much more... I'd say it would be around 550-600 mark.... which is not a bad price IMHO, let's face it, the days of cheap Pentax are over

QuoteOriginally posted by Nick Siebers Quote
.....snip..... The Sigma Super Wide II AF, (24/2.8) on the other hand, is a little gem. ...snip.....
Unfortunately I can't agree on this one, I used to have it, contrast is not great, colours are too green, flare resistance is very bad.... Small size, fast AF and relatively good build quality are all pluses but if IQ is just not there than it's not worth it IMO... but maybe I just had faulty copy....

---

all in all, I think despite different POVs there is one consensus in this thread!
Pentaxians want new SMC 24. Whether f2/2.4/2.8, * or not, SDM or screw or DC, WR on not, ideally metal mount. But we want new 24. The focal length is very desired and very practical/useful. If you look at Sigma 24/2.8 SW II AF, it's not big, it has metal jacket, metal mount and is AF with only 52mm filter thread. I mean if Sigma could do it 20-15 years ago, Pentax could easily do it now and it doesn't necessarily have to cost arm and leg... I hope same day soon Pentax will listen, I mean they showed they do by releasing DAL35 so I hope they will answer this call too....

my 2p

Last edited by axl; 10-10-2010 at 04:29 AM.
10-10-2010, 05:24 AM   #42
Pentaxian
Nick Siebers's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Madison, WI
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,139
Axl, I am with you on the greener color of the Super Wide, but contrast on mine has been fine. I have a nice deep hood on it, I think that might make a difference. Certainly it cuts down on flare. Of course, it makes it a lot bigger. Its no 50/1.2, but handy for what it is.

Pentax must think they have this range covered with the DA 21. As that lens is neither fast nor cheap, I think demand for a 24ish prime will remain until they produce one, one way or the other.
10-10-2010, 05:53 AM   #43
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,368
I'm more interested in a new high quality 18 or 20 mm lens (sort of the wide angle sweet spot for me on APS-C, I think), but if Pentax came out with a great new new 24 mm lens I'd definitely be interested. They could even make it f/2.4 if they wanted, as long as they gave it nice rendering and bokeh like they did with the 35 f/2.4. To me the DA21 f/3.2 , although it has been somewhat unfairly overlooked and a good lens in its own right, is overpriced at the moment for what you get. It is also currently the only real option for most consumers between 16 mm and 30 mm.
10-10-2010, 07:33 AM   #44
axl
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nove Zamky, Slovakia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,181
+1 for 18mm (but just because I have got 24 covered )
Something like 18/3.5 or 3.2 or there abouts, that one could be small...
10-10-2010, 08:57 AM   #45
Site Supporter
GeneV's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Albuquerque NM
Photos: Albums
Posts: 9,761
QuoteOriginally posted by axl Quote
+1 for 18mm (but just because I have got 24 covered )
Something like 18/3.5 or 3.2 or there abouts, that one could be small...
It seems like WallyB jumped all over me once for asking for that lens, but I think they ought to be able to make a reasonably compact 18mm 2.8 DA ltd. The kit zoom which is F3.5 at 18mm is not huge, and it seems like taking out the zoom and adding a bit more speed and IQ could yield a nice lens to hit that spot which would be about the size of the DA15.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
da, k-mount, pentax, pentax lens, slr lens
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Only listen with HEADPHONES redpigeons General Talk 2 02-13-2009 03:47 AM
Why you shouldn't listen to others (necessarily)... krypticide Post Your Photos! 12 10-21-2008 11:50 AM
Real world shootout Pentax FA* 24mm F2.0 vs Sigma 24mm EX DG F1.8 NaClH2O Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 8 03-18-2008 05:30 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:41 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top