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10-17-2010, 10:16 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote
what irony that some the very people bitching here about used prices and desiring to INTERFERE with someone else's business sit on high and justify the current US MSRP of the K-5....talk about duplicity/double-standards/lack of ethics.

FYI, there is a rule on the Marketplace that forbids posting comments about prices so one should assume PM's to the same effect would be contrary to the spirit of that rule. But doing this all you do is run off people from even bothering with offering items for sale here as you are no better than the "shill" bidders most of you conjure up w/o proof.

Sorry if this sounds angry, that is because it is...and as I have pointed out, none of you will email a someone listing something too cheap for current prices and suggest they ask a higher price...nope you will swoop in and buy it to resell yourself after playing with it for a while. So gimme a break.

marketplace rules refresher for those who never, errrr, missed it hint: some of the blue parts are sorta on point here):

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photographic-equipment-sale/137-read-firs...equipment.html
there is a difference between what is considered as a bargain price, market price, mislabeled price and highway robbery. there are also market forces that are to be considered.

as far as business ethics is concerned, just because you got an FA31 for $200, does obligate you to sell it for the same price. you can sell it for $600-$700 and I'm sure that there will be a lot of happy campers that would go for it, including yourself. the seller already made a $500 profit and I dont think that someone would complain about it especially if they got it for less than the market price unless they are cheapskate or complete idiots. now, did the seller sell it for more than what is considered as fair or did someone got robbed? you'd be the judge by the number of interested parties willing to buy it without saying a word.

p.s. I also dont like those people who bitch and moan on how the FA35 should be priced. even making comparisons against the DA35, DA40 and the better built FA43. the point is, the FA35 is not those lenses and it aint no friggin kitlens either. it's a classic legacy lens that I believe may have already been truly discontinued now. it's a lens that deserves it's place being a plastic fantastic in a way.


Last edited by Pentaxor; 10-17-2010 at 10:21 PM.
10-17-2010, 10:44 PM   #32
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an item, as has been pointed out so many times here, by those defending the MSRP of the K-5 for example, but an item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and to attempt to interfere with the transaction in any fashion is, potentially against the law, not sure if you know but it is a felony to discuss an auction and agree not to compete against another person on an item...those are called bid-rings and are a felony. but that is not what we are discussing here. What is at hand is real simply it is NOBODY'S business what someone else pays for an item in either direction.

As to your example about a seller not having to honor a sales price...funny, I would LOVE to see the reactions to that around here. In such a case, the only difference between the self righteous about being "cheated out of their deal" and puppies is the puppies would eventually stop whining. Also sans the proper disclaimer about publishing errors voiding a sale or offer do indeed apply in most states. If you advertise for a price you darned well best be prepared to deliver unless you post that you are not responsible for pricing errors. Is this all overkill for a simple forum marketplace, sure it is...but so is trying to guilt sellers into lower prices with comments about cheating buyers buy daring to get as high a price as you can. The great part of selling somewhere like here is doing business with people you know or have at least seen around the board...it supposed to be fun...and it is until someone decides to stick their nose into another's dealings.

Also what a seller pays for an item, when or where they bought it also does not matter in what they care to sell it for...it's their crap. That means they get to set the price...period end of story.

When selling merchandise there is no such thing as "highway robbery" in the context being discussed here, we might not like it and sure we can grumble and complain privately (hell that is part of the fun, right" ), but it is the seller's prerogative what to ask for an item...don't like it, don't pay it. But people cannot defend the mfg and attack the guy selling used for asking a price even if it's over retail or what you feel is fair.

Now, I have emailed an eBay seller now and again just to confirm a price is not a mistake if it's insane high, but that is between me and the seller representing no harm to the potential transaction. However when 3rd party vigilante "pricing police" go after the seller, that is another thing completely. It pushes both sellers AND buyers away from the marketplace and over to eBay when one does not need to deal with such BS. In fact I am sure it's why Adam came up with the rules he did, to have a free running marketplace. And it works nicely as long as people remember it's not their job to decide what things are bought and sold for.

Basically there is nothing you can state which justifies interfering in someone's marketplace transaction. It's even in the rules.
10-17-2010, 10:46 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote
what irony that some the very people bitching here about used prices and desiring to INTERFERE with someone else's business sit on high and justify the current US MSRP of the K-5....talk about duplicity/double-standards/lack of ethics.

FYI, there is a rule on the Marketplace that forbids posting comments about prices so one should assume PM's to potential buyers to the same effect would be covered in the spirit of that rule. But doing this all you do is run off people from even bothering with offering items for sale here as you are no better than the "shill" bidders most of you conjure up w/o proof.

Sorry if this sounds angry, that is because it is...and as I have pointed out, none of you will email a someone listing something too cheap for current prices and suggest they ask a higher price...nope you will swoop in and buy it to resell yourself after playing with it for a while. So gimme a break.

marketplace rules refresher for those who never, errrr, missed it hint: some of the blue parts are sorta on point here):

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photographic-equipment-sale/137-read-firs...equipment.html
Mate
if someone has been lucky, and sprung a bargain, then good onya, if you wanna sell it for more than you bought it for..then good onya again...what shits me. is people that do that. then crap on in the market place that their newly listed lens is cheap, and are gob smacked that it aint been snapped up....blimey ..or the others that cant believe its still listed cause its a cheap price, when in reality , its $50 below a new one

Dude Ive got cash waiting for a lens, but Im buggered if Im gonna shell out on this forum for one that almost at new costs...there are lenses in that market place that Id have bought already if they were priced right....I aint never gonna point a finger at anyone for that either...not my style....but I'm certainly gonna have a bitch about the whole second hand market.....and if people that are reading this thread wise up some...then perhaps we may see some realistic prices being sought, rather than relying on the odd mug to come along ....

I personly reckon anything that's used and without a warranty from some geezer across the other side of the world...is worth 60% of what the new price is. and if its abused and knocked about some..then less again.....RARE items dont fit that bill obviously
10-17-2010, 10:58 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
Mate
if someone has been lucky, and sprung a bargain, then good onya, if you wanna sell it for more than you bought it for..then good onya again...what shits me. is people that do that. then crap on in the market place that their newly listed lens is cheap, and are gob smacked that it aint been snapped up....blimey ..or the others that cant believe its still listed cause its a cheap price, when in reality , its $50 below a new one
Absolutely agree...but see I sail by those sellers because they are too slick for what is supposed to be a low pressure friendly place to trade gear around. And I think that is my overall point, the minute others take it on themselves to decide what is fair and try to police the place it sucks the fun out of it for me.

I mean I don't get rich selling gear...I only do it so i can try other gear and, well it's fun to deal with other forum folk.


QuoteQuote:
Dude Ive got cash waiting for a lens, but Im buggered if Im gonna shell out on this forum for one that almost at new costs...there are lenses in that market place that Id have bought already if they were priced right....I aint never gonna point a finger at anyone for that either...not my style....but I'm certainly gonna have a bitch about the whole second hand market.....and if people that are reading this thread wise up some...then perhaps we may see some realistic prices being sought, rather than relying on the odd mug to come along ....

I personly reckon anything that's used and without a warranty from some geezer across the other side of the world...is worth 60% of what the new price is. and if its abused and knocked about some..then less again.....RARE items dont fit that bill obviously
I do agree that it's frustrating to see some prices, but thing is, most of us, myself included, are used to Pentax gear being a LOT less expensive and still haven't adapted. I still feel the K-5 is over priced but time will tell and, if it doesn't drop and I live another 6-months I'll prolly buy one no matter the price because, well I am going out owing as much money as I can...hehehehe...

but remember one thing, to some people realistic is over retail for a variety of reasons all depending on their situation.

And remember even on used sales you can buy 3rd party warranties through places like Square Trade...I know anyone who I sell to can buy one even on off eBay sales, unless they changed that, and for all I know they have. Something I should check on I suppose.

10-17-2010, 11:07 PM   #35
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no worries dude...sounds like me and you are on the same page .....Im new to pentax..so current new prices, are just that for me......second hand ..is another ball of wax altogether......I go into the market place daily,,,and Im genuinely happy if someone gets a good deal...even if they beat me to it....thats life
Im also genuinely happy for the seller too..cause hes got shot of his gear and moved on...sales that linger aint good
10-17-2010, 11:16 PM   #36
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I find it funny that an Aussie has brought this discussion up...

Anyways...I signed up here a month or two ago with one of the big pros being the great marketplace for used stuff here. Like Tommot I've got dollars to spend and there's a ton of stuff here that I'd love, but I can't justify the price on most.

I don't think there's any reason to have a go at someone because they've set an unrealistic price. They've priced it at what they want for it and someone will come along willing to spend the money.

For example, I just bought a used FA 50mm for $300AUD. Probably more than what it's worth, but I wanted it and was happy to pay the price.

Supply and demand and all that right?
10-17-2010, 11:17 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
{....just a big snip....}
BTW, you know I am not being personal here right? This is just a hot button with me because there are a lot of people out there who are old coots who complain about these things are truly do intefere with other people's business.

And I have been in the antiques business since I was 7 so for 43 years now. And I can say with 100% certainty I have never cheated anyone...some people really don't know the business of buying-and-selling is the last bastion of a free market. We lose more control every day...right now I am required BY LAW here in California to file reports every month of all the merchandise I buy to sell. AND I am required to hold it for 30-days after filing the report. This started under the whole post 9/11 stuff. Plus towns were pissed about people selling on eBay not in town. But sellers of used items are often looked at as nothing but "fences" for stolen goods. So that is bad enough. And all it takes is a single report to the Sheriff's Dept that I am selling stolen stuff and I am shut down and they will SEIZE my stuff if they are in the mood to do so...with no proof and it up to me to prove it's not stolen...all without due process. I am lucky, it's a small town and we all know each other. but others in larger cities have been shut down because the got something ahead of someone else at an estate sale. The person who lost out filed an annonymous report of the other guy dealing in stolen goods. It was insane, and of course, totally false.

So, I am very protective over private transactions. I don't judge what people pay or charge. I laugh when I feel it's too high and whine when I miss a good deal...but it all evens out on that end.

Anyway, I think you too have your heart in the right place wanting a fun safe marketplace for everyone. I just am maybe seeing a desire for control over things price wise? I dunno...

But don't take my comments as being something personal...just being crotchety and cranky...hehehehe....
10-17-2010, 11:22 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tommot1965 Quote
no worries dude...sounds like me and you are on the same page .....Im new to pentax..so current new prices, are just that for me......second hand ..is another ball of wax altogether......I go into the market place daily,,,and Im genuinely happy if someone gets a good deal...even if they beat me to it....thats life
Im also genuinely happy for the seller too..cause hes got shot of his gear and moved on...sales that linger aint good
cool...and yeah...I agree. As long as everyone in the deal is happy, who cares?

QuoteOriginally posted by MickB Quote
I find it funny that an Aussie has brought this discussion up...

Anyways...I signed up here a month or two ago with one of the big pros being the great marketplace for used stuff here. Like Tommot I've got dollars to spend and there's a ton of stuff here that I'd love, but I can't justify the price on most.

I don't think there's any reason to have a go at someone because they've set an unrealistic price. They've priced it at what they want for it and someone will come along willing to spend the money.

For example, I just bought a used FA 50mm for $300AUD. Probably more than what it's worth, but I wanted it and was happy to pay the price.

Supply and demand and all that right?
Perfect example! You found something you wanted and bought it...sure you could hunt for a better deal, but I recently bought a referb laptop as one of mine died and I paid $200 more than I normally would have but it was pristine with a few upgrades that saved me the trouble of upgrading it myself. It was worth to me and I had it the next day missing only one day of working.

BTW, I don't think you paid too much by today's prices. Everything is relative and it's cheaper than a DA*55 right?

10-17-2010, 11:36 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote
an item, as has been pointed out so many times here, by those defending the MSRP of the K-5 for example, but an item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and to attempt to interfere with the transaction in any fashion is, potentially against the law, not sure if you know but it is a felony to discuss an auction and agree not to compete against another person on an item...those are called bid-rings and are a felony. but that is not what we are discussing here. What is at hand is real simply it is NOBODY'S business what someone else pays for an item in either direction.

As to your example about a seller not having to honor a sales price...funny, I would LOVE to see the reactions to that around here. In such a case, the only difference between the self righteous about being "cheated out of their deal" and puppies is the puppies would eventually stop whining. Also sans the proper disclaimer about publishing errors voiding a sale or offer do indeed apply in most states. If you advertise for a price you darned well best be prepared to deliver unless you post that you are not responsible for pricing errors. Is this all overkill for a simple forum marketplace, sure it is...but so is trying to guilt sellers into lower prices with comments about cheating buyers buy daring to get as high a price as you can. The great part of selling somewhere like here is doing business with people you know or have at least seen around the board...it supposed to be fun...and it is until someone decides to stick their nose into another's dealings.

Also what a seller pays for an item, when or where they bought it also does not matter in what they care to sell it for...it's their crap. That means they get to set the price...period end of story.

When selling merchandise there is no such thing as "highway robbery" in the context being discussed here, we might not like it and sure we can grumble and complain privately (hell that is part of the fun, right" ), but it is the seller's prerogative what to ask for an item...don't like it, don't pay it. But people cannot defend the mfg and attack the guy selling used for asking a price even if it's over retail or what you feel is fair.

Now, I have emailed an eBay seller now and again just to confirm a price is not a mistake if it's insane high, but that is between me and the seller representing no harm to the potential transaction. However when 3rd party vigilante "pricing police" go after the seller, that is another thing completely. It pushes both sellers AND buyers away from the marketplace and over to eBay when one does not need to deal with such BS. In fact I am sure it's why Adam came up with the rules he did, to have a free running marketplace. And it works nicely as long as people remember it's not their job to decide what things are bought and sold for.

Basically there is nothing you can state which justifies interfering in someone's marketplace transaction. It's even in the rules.
there is no interference involved. however talking about personal dealings is quite tricky. for some reason it's ok to voice out your rant but there are times that it is annoying as well, especially the rant is about plainly being a cheapskate. a part of me somehow don't agree with publicly refer to marketplace dealings, as you said that it may drove off sellers and buyers. for what it's worth, I haven't seen a dealing here that has been totally unreasonable or can be considered as highway robbery. just see people whining about why they can't buy the lens for the set price and as I mentioned, this should be the price for it, tadat tadat tada. point is the fair price concept is rather misused for being the market price. fair price becomes more like what price I'm willing to pay for it. yes, it's annoying to see people rant this way. a seller selling a $200 16-45 lens, do the other sellers should price their 16-45 lens the same? don't tell me that people have that shallow understanding. well, people like that exists, and it's so funny that it's sad.

anyway, I'm not associated with the referred seller. but as a fellow neighbor from the north, I know how much we are paying for and if someone is taking advantage of someone's intelligence.


when it comes to highway robbery, I believe eBay holds that record. so people should feel more safe here. careful of hit and run members though.
10-18-2010, 12:31 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
there is no interference involved. however talking about personal dealings is quite tricky. for some reason it's ok to voice out your rant but there are times that it is annoying as well, especially the rant is about plainly being a cheapskate. a part of me somehow don't agree with publicly refer to marketplace dealings, as you said that it may drove off sellers and buyers. for what it's worth, I haven't seen a dealing here that has been totally unreasonable or can be considered as highway robbery. just see people whining about why they can't buy the lens for the set price and as I mentioned, this should be the price for it, tadat tadat tada. point is the fair price concept is rather misused for being the market price. fair price becomes more like what price I'm willing to pay for it. yes, it's annoying to see people rant this way. a seller selling a $200 16-45 lens, do the other sellers should price their 16-45 lens the same? don't tell me that people have that shallow understanding. well, people like that exists, and it's so funny that it's sad.

anyway, I'm not associated with the referred seller. but as a fellow neighbor from the north, I know how much we are paying for and if someone is taking advantage of someone's intelligence.

when it comes to highway robbery, I believe eBay holds that record. so people should feel more safe here. careful of hit and run members though.
yeah, that is it exactly!! It is impossible to determine as a 3rd party what is fair. I could offer an example, I had a consignment piece of jewelry about 8 or 9 years ago. It was a 57-carat emerald, and real. There were, I forget somewhere around 40 baguette diamonds as well each around 1/4-carat each. After some testing ans such there were flaws in the stone, every emerald has flaws and had it be flawless I could have retired from the commission alone. But I sold it for over $45k more than one of the major auction houses claimed it was worth. I got $68k for it from a local buyer vs. sending it off to the auction house. Plus we got paid cash right then and there, well a certified check anyway. The price I got was $20k over the highest appraisal we paid for and I just decided for my client that the price was too low. My attitude was go out and find another similar piece today.

Did the person pay too much? Did the person get cheated just because others declared it was worth less? Nope...today it's worth 2x-3x the price paid. Not a bad investment. The buyer wanted it then and there at a sure price vs. the risk of an auction and losing it to someone who wanted it more. I love that as an example of how the "value" of an item is only what someone wants to pay you today not yesterday or tomorrow...but today here and now to the parties involved in the transaction.

No such thing as paying to much, even on eBay...if the price is known up front and someone pays it, then that is the value at that microsecond. People pay list/sticker price for cars all the time...I wouldn't but they don't care and just write the check. Did they get cheated? Nope...they got what they were told they were paying for...
10-18-2010, 12:58 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote
yeah, that is it exactly!! It is impossible to determine as a 3rd party what is fair. I could offer an example, I had a consignment piece of jewelry about 8 or 9 years ago. It was a 57-carat emerald, and real. There were, I forget somewhere around 40 baguette diamonds as well each around 1/4-carat each. After some testing ans such there were flaws in the stone, every emerald has flaws and had it be flawless I could have retired from the commission alone. But I sold it for over $45k more than one of the major auction houses claimed it was worth. I got $68k for it from a local buyer vs. sending it off to the auction house. Plus we got paid cash right then and there, well a certified check anyway. The price I got was $20k over the highest appraisal we paid for and I just decided for my client that the price was too low. My attitude was go out and find another similar piece today.

Did the person pay too much? Did the person get cheated just because others declared it was worth less? Nope...today it's worth 2x-3x the price paid. Not a bad investment. The buyer wanted it then and there at a sure price vs. the risk of an auction and losing it to someone who wanted it more. I love that as an example of how the "value" of an item is only what someone wants to pay you today not yesterday or tomorrow...but today here and now to the parties involved in the transaction.

No such thing as paying to much, even on eBay...if the price is known up front and someone pays it, then that is the value at that microsecond. People pay list/sticker price for cars all the time...I wouldn't but they don't care and just write the check. Did they get cheated? Nope...they got what they were told they were paying for...
one would feel or definitely cheated if those were imitations. in lens terms, it's a DUD !
10-18-2010, 02:24 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by MickB Quote
I find it funny that an Aussie has brought this discussion up...
Micko
you know us Aussies mate ..we love a beer, snags. steak. women..more beer..and a bloody good Bargain...LMAO
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