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12-08-2010, 11:08 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
"prime shooter" who feels they need to carry around two primes with a focal length difference of 6mm
I don't do this myself, but I can understand this practice if you are specifically referring to the DA 15 and DA 21.

The DA 15 is a pretty extreme focal length, and every MM makes a huge difference. It makes more sense to think about things as % difference. It might surprise you to learn that the fov difference between the DA 15 and DA 21 is almost as large as the DA 40 and DA 70. You wouldn't criticize someone for carrying around a normal and a portrait lens, right?

Well, the DA 15 is about environments. IMHO, the DA 21 is great for people IN environments. When you get up to the 35-50 range, you really center in on people, and by 70mm you are focusing on features (i.e, someone's face).

You could apply this to anything really, I'm just using people as an example. I've seen a few AWESOME shots with the DA 15 as a portrait-esque lens, but they are rare. With the DA 21, however, you see them often. It's just what that focal length is meant for.

There is a reason why the sigma or pentax WA zooms are only 10mm in total, while their normal zooms are 34m. They actually cover a very similar multiplication range.

This isn't an argument for primes actually... I like them for their ergonomics, but lots of people who are very, very good, would rather invest in a great zoom and work much faster than I can. If you are swapping the 15 and 21 often, the 12-24 zoom makes a lot of sense in my books... so it's not really like there is one right answer.

The only prime I think everyone needs to have is some sort of fast prime in the 50mm - 85mm range. There is no competing with a fast prime for portraits at f2. Oh, and a macro, if that's your thing.

12-08-2010, 11:39 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
I go both ways, does that... disturb you?
Yes, but I am determined to be open-minded and give you your liberties.
12-08-2010, 12:30 PM   #48
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I have that FA 100 macro, it's a great lens at macro and quite good as a 100 mm telephoto. I use it a lot in the summer to take insect pictures.

A macro is the only capability you really don't have with your current lenses. Whether you'd use that macro enough to justify is your decision.
12-08-2010, 12:35 PM   #49
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FA*250-600

... when one comes up for "sale".

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12-08-2010, 12:50 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
I don't do this myself, but I can understand this practice if you are specifically referring to the DA 15 and DA 21.

The DA 15 is a pretty extreme focal length, and every MM makes a huge difference. It makes more sense to think about things as % difference. It might surprise you to learn that the fov difference between the DA 15 and DA 21 is almost as large as the DA 40 and DA 70. You wouldn't criticize someone for carrying around a normal and a portrait lens, right?

Well, the DA 15 is about environments. IMHO, the DA 21 is great for people IN environments. When you get up to the 35-50 range, you really center in on people, and by 70mm you are focusing on features (i.e, someone's face).

You could apply this to anything really, I'm just using people as an example. I've seen a few AWESOME shots with the DA 15 as a portrait-esque lens, but they are rare. With the DA 21, however, you see them often. It's just what that focal length is meant for.

There is a reason why the sigma or pentax WA zooms are only 10mm in total, while their normal zooms are 34m. They actually cover a very similar multiplication range.

This isn't an argument for primes actually... I like them for their ergonomics, but lots of people who are very, very good, would rather invest in a great zoom and work much faster than I can. If you are swapping the 15 and 21 often, the 12-24 zoom makes a lot of sense in my books... so it's not really like there is one right answer.

The only prime I think everyone needs to have is some sort of fast prime in the 50mm - 85mm range. There is no competing with a fast prime for portraits at f2. Oh, and a macro, if that's your thing.

I tend to agree with the observations with regards to lens focal length use. however, the DA15 has a very limited use for portraits due to it's shortcomings for being an UW lens. that is why it is quite rare to see portraits done with the lens.

anyway, the thing with zooms is it's convenience of use. while primes always have that stigma of creating better or if not, much preferred outcome. I can't blame people for having this notion since it is mostly true. there are pros and cons between primes and zooms. so I guess the best thing to do is to have both for certain purposes.
12-08-2010, 01:24 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
I don't do this myself, but I can understand this practice if you are specifically referring to the DA 15 and DA 21.

The DA 15 is a pretty extreme focal length, and every MM makes a huge difference. It makes more sense to think about things as % difference. It might surprise you to learn that the fov difference between the DA 15 and DA 21 is almost as large as the DA 40 and DA 70. You wouldn't criticize someone for carrying around a normal and a portrait lens, right?

/SNIP

The only prime I think everyone needs to have is some sort of fast prime in the 50mm - 85mm range. There is no competing with a fast prime for portraits at f2. Oh, and a macro, if that's your thing.
Just a little factual correction: I believe that the difference between DA 15 and DA 21 is closer to the difference between a DA 40 and a DA 55, between an FA 50 and a DA 70, or between a DA 55 and an FA 77. So not trivial, but not exactly DA 40 vs. DA 70, exactly. That said, I sympathize with the desire to have both of each of these pairs of lenses. :-)

About the "only prime everyone needs to have", I would still say a normal prime in the 28-40 range, and f2.8 or bigger, is the essential requirement. But perspectives differ . . .
12-08-2010, 01:28 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
The DA 15 is a pretty extreme focal length, and every MM makes a huge difference. It makes more sense to think about things as % difference. It might surprise you to learn that the fov difference between the DA 15 and DA 21 is almost as large as the DA 40 and DA 70. You wouldn't criticize someone for carrying around a normal and a portrait lens, right?
I do realise the FOV difference isn't as small as it would seem - and I did say my thoughts might be controversial.

So.. In terms of FOV DA21 is 75% of the DA15, while the DA70 is 57% of the DA40. That's if I've got my sums right! For me personally the latter is justifiable but with the former I'd rather change my position than switch lenses.

They do seem to do better at different kinds of photos, but my feeling is that one picks a prime based on how the focal length (and other more difficult to quantify properties) matches personal preference and style rather than trying to cover every possible eventuality... While the prime/zoom decision is, on one hand, a compromise between quality and flexibility it's also a way to artificially impose a limitation in order to exploit the extra thought processes and creativity that limitations bring.

I talk a lot of crap too, of course!
12-08-2010, 01:31 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
Um. I only use one zoom, the 10-20. The DA40 "lives" on my camera. I prefer primes when they make sense.

I was just saying that a "prime shooter" who feels they need to carry around two primes with a focal length difference of 6mm may want to consider a zoom instead even though it's not as trendy and no zoom is as beautiful as a Ltd. Controversial? Maybe!

If Pentax made a DA10 Limited would I ditch the Sigma and get that? Hell yes.
Well, at one point in my LBA-driven bankruptcy plan lens buying plan I had primes every 3-7mm from 15 to 50 -- 8 lenses! I just believed that each of those FLs featured a "valid" and interesting FOV. But before going too far down that road, I realized that agonizing between one of these lenses and an "adjacent" FOV could be a paralyzing form of doubt, so I switched to a 4-lens plan with 9-15mm between lenses. I feel much healthier now :-p but I understand the other impulse.

12-08-2010, 01:35 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
I do realise the FOV difference isn't as small as it would seem - and I did say my thoughts might be controversial.

So.. In terms of FOV DA21 is 75% of the DA15, while the DA70 is 57% of the DA40. That's if I've got my sums right! For me personally the latter is justifiable but with the former I'd rather change my position than switch lenses.
But how do you feel about DA 40 vs. DA 55, FA 50 vs. DA 70, or DA 55 vs. FA 77? Those are all in that 70-75% range, same as DA 15 vs. DA 40 . . .

Edit: that last pairing was supposed to be DA 55 vs. DA 40. Oops. :-)

Last edited by Impartial; 12-08-2010 at 07:04 PM.
12-08-2010, 02:19 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Impartial Quote
But how do you feel about DA 40 vs. DA 55, FA 50 vs. DA 70, or DA 55 vs. FA 77? Those are all in that 70-75% range, same as DA 15 vs. DA 40 . . .
Well.. DA15 vs DA40 is a big FOV difference - maybe a typo?

The others, yeah - I think it's totally debatable and other opinions are equally valid but I wouldn't bother to carry a 40 and a 55 around at the same time. I can understand the point of owning, for example, the DA40 and the DA*55 because they're for totally different things.. But taking them both on a day out? I'd rather a bigger spread.

(Also, for me, it's difficult to justify even owning both because when I have time to take photos it's generally when I've flown somewhere for weeks or months and any lenses I didn't bring, well, they're no use to me. Carry-on weight limits in economy class are ridiculous. Must be even more of a pain for Canon/Nikon users!)

Also, your previous post - I think everyone has that lens buying plan at some point!
12-08-2010, 03:06 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Impartial Quote
so I switched to a 4-lens plan with 9-15mm between lenses
This is what I'm hoping to do, but no one one craigslist will buy my vintage primes!

But back to the OP's topic... the question here is the ergonomic joy of using a prime lens, as he stated.

I'm going to have to give this award to the DA70 for being a quick focuser and very light. It's a joy. The DFA 100 is really really nice as well, and just about as good for portraits really, but it's much larger (not that much heavier) and much slower focusing because it's a macro!

So depending on your usage, I don't think you can go wrong with either, but my thoughts would be to lean towards the DA 70 for the ergonomics.
12-08-2010, 03:13 PM   #57
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I am so much a prime shooter that my zooms sit lonely at home 99% of the time -- with one exception: the DA12-24mm. And that is because I would need a fistful of primes to cover that wide-end field of view range. That zoom is actually quite compact, especially considering its speed.
12-08-2010, 03:25 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
DA12-24mm
This option is also considerably less expensive than even just the 2 DA limiteds at the wide end.
12-08-2010, 06:56 PM   #59
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What I've actually been noticing is that I'm very much a prime shooter. With the DA 16-45/4, I'm either at 16mm or at 45mm, never in between. As for the DA 55-300, I've really only used it at the 300 end, which is what I needed i for.
12-08-2010, 08:34 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
I do realise the FOV difference isn't as small as it would seem - and I did say my thoughts might be controversial.

So.. In terms of FOV DA21 is 75% of the DA15, while the DA70 is 57% of the DA40. That's if I've got my sums right! For me personally the latter is justifiable but with the former I'd rather change my position than switch lenses.

They do seem to do better at different kinds of photos, but my feeling is that one picks a prime based on how the focal length (and other more difficult to quantify properties) matches personal preference and style rather than trying to cover every possible eventuality... While the prime/zoom decision is, on one hand, a compromise between quality and flexibility it's also a way to artificially impose a limitation in order to exploit the extra thought processes and creativity that limitations bring.

I talk a lot of crap too, of course!
You actually need to square the FOV difference because pictures are 2-D but that doesn't effect the overall point.

There is one problem with the zoom with your feet solution while using the 15 and 21. If they are used in landscapes you might have to walk a quarter mile because of distances that you're shooting at. And you've completely changed your picture. Or it might not be possible to zoom with your feet due to the landscape.
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