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12-11-2010, 05:49 AM - 1 Like   #31
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One of the difficulties with jewelry is perspective and depth of field interactions; on the one hand, you likely want to shoot at an angle (as in the cross example immediately preceding this posting), but Depth of Field limitations throw the foreground and background out of focus too badly for your taste*.

This can be corrected by using a tilt lens or bellows. Such lenses or bellows (for example, Nikon PB-4) are fairly expensive and require experience, but can greatly increase the effective depth of field**.

Here's a 45 degree perspective example showing the dof increase** with an 8 degree tilt lens at about 1:2 mag:


With the right lens tilt, an entire tilted plane can be in focus**.

Dave

* short dof on a perspective shot isn't necessarily bad as people automatically use such clues as an indication of how large the subject is (see the miniaturizing effect of tilt lenses.)

** I should better say something like "tilts the in-focus plane so a tilted flat subject can be in focus" - thanks to Lowell G for pointing this out.

The gear is an inexpensive used bellows ~$40, a MIR Pentacon Six 65mm lens (80mm would be better) ~ $65 ,and a Hartblei tilt adapter ebay ~ $125


Last edited by newarts; 12-11-2010 at 08:05 AM.
12-11-2010, 06:44 AM   #32
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Dave, does that adapter Shift as well? One of my BIGGEST sales regrets in the last 12 years was selling my Spiratone Bellows set (Complete View Camera movements). Missed out on one earlier in the week because I was doing something else and lost track of time (waiting to see where the price was really going to go).

12-11-2010, 07:23 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by chasintrail Quote
Hmmmm, that brings up an interesting idea. I have a Canon 50mm 1.4 that I'm flat out in love with. Since all of this is '70s era Canon gear, would probably be easiest to just stick with those lenses. May be playing with the bellows sooner than intended. Still going the lens route initially, but this will be a fun project for the nasty winter days ahead. Of course I'll probably get into it and discover that the bellows hasn't survived the years well.
it is not that hard, see attached link showing my home built kit. Bellows is at least 40 years old, and still functional. If you have any cracks or light leaks paint the bellows itsellf with flexible black fabric paint or perhaps vinal paint.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/90010-look-out...-gun-here.html
QuoteQuote:
BTW - I'm a her.
Yes Ma'am
12-11-2010, 07:25 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by JeffJS Quote
Dave, does that adapter Shift as well? One of my BIGGEST sales regrets in the last 12 years was selling my Spiratone Bellows set (Complete View Camera movements). Missed out on one earlier in the week because I was doing something else and lost track of time (waiting to see where the price was really going to go).

Nope, no shift. But shift is so easy in software I don't think it matters much.

The Hartblei adapter is a well built device. I chose the Pentacon Six - M42 version, but others are available.

Its limitation for macro work is a maximum tilt of 8 degrees - this is no problem for non-macro applications as the farther the subject from the camera, the less tilt is needed.

Dave

PS I suggested an 80mm lens for the bellows set-up to include infinity focus with the bellows; it doesn't matter for macros.

another scheme would use the Hartblei adapter and a Pentacon Six reverse adapter and step-down rings to mount an enlarger lens.


Last edited by newarts; 12-11-2010 at 08:07 AM.
12-11-2010, 07:45 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
This can be corrected by using a tilt lens or bellows. Such lenses or bellows (for example, Nikon PB-4) are fairly expensive and require experience, but can greatly increase the effective depth of field.
Note tilt does not correct depth of field, as you suggest but alters (tilts) the plane of focus, At any line on the plane of focus that is parallel to the rotational axis of the tilt, the depth of field remains unchanged. Subjects in front of or behind this line are still out of focus. The result is that for flat objects shot at an angle, you can have the top surface of the object sharp, and let the background or features below the top surface fall out of focus.

For those interested, shift corrects for perspective distortion but does not alter Depth of field either.

While shift can be simulated in software, i.e. perspective can be corrected, tilt cannot be achieved in software,
12-11-2010, 07:55 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Note tilt does not correct depth of field, as you suggest but alters (tilts) the plane of focus, .... The result is that for flat objects shot at an angle, you can have the top surface of the object sharp, and let the background or features below the top surface fall out of focus....
Thanks Lowell,

Yes, I apologize for my sloppy use of language. I should say something like "puts a tllted plane in focus". I need a crisp way of saying it without a long explanation.

How about "by tilting the lens appropriately you can get an entire tilted plane in focus."?

Cambridegeincolour.com has a nice tutorial about the tilt effect.

Dave

PS on review, I did say "effective Depth of field" in the context of a planar subject, and say "With the right lens tilt, an entire tilted plane can be in focus"...I've edited my original post to clarify things.

Last edited by newarts; 12-11-2010 at 08:24 AM.
12-11-2010, 08:18 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
Thanks Lowell,

Yes, I apologize for my sloppy use of language. I should say something like "puts a tllted plane in focus". I need a crisp way of saying it without a long explanation.
.
No need to apologize for this, the forum is all about exchange of ideas, If I think a thread is confusing or misleading, I comment, hoping that If I post something confusing or misleading others will correct me as well. After all, that is the process by which we learn, and we never stop learning
12-11-2010, 09:28 AM   #38
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Tilt, if you only move one element (front or back) will also change Perspective. This was done with a Graflex Speed Graphic with the front standard swung towards the loco (think of it as a horizontal tilt). The film back on this camera is not movable. That's one of the reasons I'm still kicking myself in the ass for selling my 35mm Spiratone Bellows.

The perspective though can be corrected but you are correct, the actual focal plane cannot.





Edit.. Sorry, forgot to add the photo

-


Last edited by JeffJS; 12-11-2010 at 03:25 PM.
12-11-2010, 12:17 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
The gear is an inexpensive used bellows ~$40, a MIR Pentacon Six 65mm lens (80mm would be better) ~ $65 ,and a Hartblei tilt adapter ebay ~ $125
newarts: is a Hartblei TS lens better than the adapter for jewelry macros? I've been debating whether the 35mm would work for landscape/building shots and jewelry to kill two birds w/ one stone. No A support AFAIK, so stop down metering though..
12-11-2010, 12:33 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
newarts: is a Hartblei TS lens better than the adapter for jewelry macros?
Sorry, I don't know for sure but I doubt it because you can hang any Pentacon Six or enlarger lens you want on the adapter on a bellows. That's not saying the Hartblei lens isn't good. I just don't know.

For jewelry macros you might want more tilt like with a Nikon PB-4 bellows (about $300 used); Minolta also made a tilt bellows.

QuoteQuote:
I've been debating whether the 35mm would work for landscape/building shots and jewelry to kill two birds w)/ one stone. No A support AFAIK, so stop down metering though..
I've heard the 35mm tilt lens is out of stock (but last I looked they listed it as in stock!

Dave
12-11-2010, 12:46 PM   #41
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sorry, duplicate, ignore!

Last edited by newarts; 12-11-2010 at 12:56 PM.
12-11-2010, 04:46 PM   #42
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Again, thanks for all the great information. Looks like I have a lot to learn on the options for macro and obscure gear. This will make an awesome winter project if I ever get the studio drywall work done... <any volunteers?>

One of my jeweler buddies has a wax for me to shoot soon. I'll post some pics for you guys.

Tamara
12-11-2010, 05:52 PM   #43
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One of the members on here swears by the DA 35mm Macro for his jewelry photography. It would have to be the best modern lens to use at the moment for it.

I do like the idea of reversing rings and the like.

But from what I have seen from the 35mm ... it's hard to beat.
12-13-2010, 09:40 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
To some extent yes, but a second M42 to K mount could let him convert it to M42 front, or he could cannibalize a K mount TC for the mounts
The cheap-n-easy way to get PK mounts is to buy a set simple of PK macro tubes from Hong Kong, usually for under US$10 shipped. These are typically three measured extension tubes, and modular lens and body mounts, all on a 60mm thread.

I keep several extra sets of these lying about, and they are immensely useful for many adaptation projects. The camera-mount module lets me watch what happens with lens bayonets of various types as they almost engage with the mount lugs. (That's how I learned to taper the bayonet blades of OM and C/Y lenses.) The lens-mount module and some tube sections allow me to try many types of projector and other odd-shaped lenses on my PK cameras. The mount modules can replace the mounts on other-brand bellows, possibly with reinforcement with screws and/or epoxy. One should also be able to buy similar macro sets for other mounts, then interchange the mount modules to build cheap mount adapters, although probably without retaining infinity focus.

One needn't sacrifice a TC for this cause. These macro-set mount modules just BEG to be manipulated.
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