What's the deal with MIJ?

DogLover · 12-11-2010, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Bart

My experience differs.

Doesn't make it fact.

paperbag846 · 12-11-2010, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by DogLover

Doesn't make it fact.

My opinions differ with your facts

.

No one knows the statistics on this one ... and other related "issues" like the SDM failure rate. We can only guess as to how much of it is actually a real QC issue (SDM is suspect, but this MIJ thing is pure conjecture IMHO), and a forum is exposed to SIGNIFICANT response bias. How many people start threads stating that their lens works as expected??

You either have a good lens, or a dog. If you don't want to have to put in a little effort to ensure maximum performance, then don't expect maximum performance.

Bart · 12-12-2010, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by DogLover

Doesn't make it fact.

I see.
My experience = opinion.
Your experience = fact.
Amazing.

If the fact that the expectancy a consumer has to receive a product that is up to standards (be it a car, a pc, a camera, a lens, ...), has decreased significantly over the years is unknown to you, then I see little point in continuing this conversation.

For me, any indication that a product that wouldn't degrade over time (like a lens), has been produced in the years where you could still expect a product to be up to standards, is valuable.
So, given the choice between buying a Made in Japan versus an Assembled in Vietnam, I know what to choose. Even is the price is - significantly - higher.

abacus07 · 12-12-2010, 03:01 AM

the good news with this debate is that ime assembly errors usually result in quality problems in the first couple of months of ownership. this was at least what I saw with manufacturing plants in the auto industry. 2 plants might assemble the same vehicle and one could do a much better job. But most of the quality problems were caught by owners within the 2-3 months. For the rest of data they had about the same number of quality issues (quality issues due to design).

SO
if the Vietnam assembly is now on par with the Japan assembly (initial quality)
AND
if the Pentax design is top notch (long-term quality)
THEN
there really is no reason to think that MIJ lens is better than an assembled in Vietnam lens

But if I were selling then I would advertise MIJ just like everyone else. If I can make 5-10% more then it doesn't matter to me if there is any additional value to the lens.

DogLover · 12-12-2010, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Bart

I see.
My experience = opinion.
Your experience = fact.
Amazing.

No, you've missed the point. The point is that neither of our experiences results in a hard fact. I didn't present mine as fact, you did. I presented my experience as proof that MIJ is not necessarily an indicator of higher quality. Not that AIV is. You stated that quality standards were higher in Japan than in Vietnam. That's not a fact. That's an opinion. See the difference?

dgaies · 12-12-2010, 11:14 AM

The bottom line is that none of us know "the facts" in the sense that we have no idea what the real defect rate is between MIJ vs AIV lenses. Most people only care whether their copy of a particular lens is a good copy or not. However, there is a perception, real or not, that you have a better shot of getting a good copy if it's MIJ. As long as this perception exists (whether it's true or not), the price of used MIJ lenses will be higher than their used AIV counterparts.

DogLover · 12-12-2010, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by dgaies

The bottom line is that none of us know "the facts" in the sense that we have no idea what the real defect rate is between MIJ vs AIV lenses. Most people only care whether their copy of a particular lens is a good copy or not. However, there is a perception, real or not, that you have a better shot of getting a good copy if it's MIJ. As long as this perception exists (whether it's true or not), the price of used MIJ lenses will be higher than their used AIV counterparts.

True. It will also help the MIJ versions in the long run that folks afflicted with LBA (I'm recovering nicely, thank you) tend to be the obsessive sort. IMO, the perception of quality between the two versions will fade over time (and, perhaps we will have a readily available serial # database of those first few AIV versions), but because MIJ's are no longer available new, they will still be the ones the collectors will want.

I will be buying an FA31 fairly soon. I know it will be AIV, but since I much prefer to be the original owner of all my gear, and I know that I can send it back for an exchange if it doesn't meet my expectations, buying a used MIJ is not even tempting to me. Others, of course, will feel differently.

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12-11-2010, 01:54 PM	#31
DogLover Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 2,054	Originally posted by Bart My experience differs. Doesn't make it fact.

12-11-2010, 03:13 PM	#32
paperbag846 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,395	Originally posted by DogLover Doesn't make it fact. My opinions differ with your facts . No one knows the statistics on this one ... and other related "issues" like the SDM failure rate. We can only guess as to how much of it is actually a real QC issue (SDM is suspect, but this MIJ thing is pure conjecture IMHO), and a forum is exposed to SIGNIFICANT response bias. How many people start threads stating that their lens works as expected?? You either have a good lens, or a dog. If you don't want to have to put in a little effort to ensure maximum performance, then don't expect maximum performance.

12-12-2010, 02:48 AM	#33
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	Originally posted by DogLover Doesn't make it fact. I see. My experience = opinion. Your experience = fact. Amazing. If the fact that the expectancy a consumer has to receive a product that is up to standards (be it a car, a pc, a camera, a lens, ...), has decreased significantly over the years is unknown to you, then I see little point in continuing this conversation. For me, any indication that a product that wouldn't degrade over time (like a lens), has been produced in the years where you could still expect a product to be up to standards, is valuable. So, given the choice between buying a Made in Japan versus an Assembled in Vietnam, I know what to choose. Even is the price is - significantly - higher.

12-12-2010, 03:01 AM	#34
abacus07 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Taiwan Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,075	the good news with this debate is that ime assembly errors usually result in quality problems in the first couple of months of ownership. this was at least what I saw with manufacturing plants in the auto industry. 2 plants might assemble the same vehicle and one could do a much better job. But most of the quality problems were caught by owners within the 2-3 months. For the rest of data they had about the same number of quality issues (quality issues due to design). SO if the Vietnam assembly is now on par with the Japan assembly (initial quality) AND if the Pentax design is top notch (long-term quality) THEN there really is no reason to think that MIJ lens is better than an assembled in Vietnam lens But if I were selling then I would advertise MIJ just like everyone else. If I can make 5-10% more then it doesn't matter to me if there is any additional value to the lens.

12-12-2010, 10:44 AM	#35
DogLover Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 2,054	Originally posted by Bart I see. My experience = opinion. Your experience = fact. Amazing. No, you've missed the point. The point is that neither of our experiences results in a hard fact. I didn't present mine as fact, you did. I presented my experience as proof that MIJ is not necessarily an indicator of higher quality. Not that AIV is. You stated that quality standards were higher in Japan than in Vietnam. That's not a fact. That's an opinion. See the difference?

12-12-2010, 11:14 AM	#36
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	The bottom line is that none of us know "the facts" in the sense that we have no idea what the real defect rate is between MIJ vs AIV lenses. Most people only care whether their copy of a particular lens is a good copy or not. However, there is a perception, real or not, that you have a better shot of getting a good copy if it's MIJ. As long as this perception exists (whether it's true or not), the price of used MIJ lenses will be higher than their used AIV counterparts.

12-12-2010, 12:02 PM	#37
DogLover Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 2,054	Originally posted by dgaies The bottom line is that none of us know "the facts" in the sense that we have no idea what the real defect rate is between MIJ vs AIV lenses. Most people only care whether their copy of a particular lens is a good copy or not. However, there is a perception, real or not, that you have a better shot of getting a good copy if it's MIJ. As long as this perception exists (whether it's true or not), the price of used MIJ lenses will be higher than their used AIV counterparts. True. It will also help the MIJ versions in the long run that folks afflicted with LBA (I'm recovering nicely, thank you) tend to be the obsessive sort. IMO, the perception of quality between the two versions will fade over time (and, perhaps we will have a readily available serial # database of those first few AIV versions), but because MIJ's are no longer available new, they will still be the ones the collectors will want. I will be buying an FA31 fairly soon. I know it will be AIV, but since I much prefer to be the original owner of all my gear, and I know that I can send it back for an exchange if it doesn't meet my expectations, buying a used MIJ is not even tempting to me. Others, of course, will feel differently.