What's the deal with MIJ?

farfisa · 12-09-2010, 02:13 PM

eddie1960!

With audio gear, you gotta sell snake oil!

By the time people can afford the good stuff, they've already blown their hearing cranking those iPod earbuds!

I read a great review of a really high end iPod speaker dock that said "it was like being in the room with the computer that compressed those mp3's"

Squier · 12-09-2010, 03:09 PM

I agree Eddie - changing speaker cables say, from cheap nasty Bell Wire to something built for the task is about as big a jump in audio quality that one is ever going to detect. Going from properly manufactured speaker cable to ' snake oil ' speaker cable is throwing green down the drain.

best thing anyone can say is go to your HiFi shop, get the staff to demo a set of decent quality £20 speaker cables, then demo a £500 set. Demo them blind. If you cant hear a difference, then there isnt one.

Then spend £20

paperbag846 · 12-09-2010, 03:32 PM

The deal with MIJ is people are prejudiced and superstitious.

eddie1960 · 12-10-2010, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by farfisa

eddie1960!

I read a great review of a really high end iPod speaker dock that said "it was like being in the room with the computer that compressed those mp3's"

LMAO

I'll never understand the ridiculous micro tube systems for ipods out there for thousands of bucks
people are bloody gullible,
I play mp3 through my main system at home (which has tubes) but don't expect sound quality, it's convenience for background, setup a playlist and ignore it for the rest of the night while you entertain. but if i sit down to listen the vinyl or the cd come out (preferably vinyl for the ritual, and i do like the sound, but unlike most diehards realise the warmth I like is a form of distortion that happens to be pleasing to our ears vs some digital distortion that can make you cringe at very small amounts. Tubes are the same THD is high but where the distortion is adds a pleasing effect, transistor based with the same distortion level would make you runs screaming from the room covering your ears)

My least favourite thing about high end audio (and i was guilty of doing it when i was in the business) is the un quantifiable language
"open" Airy" Transparency"..... all utter bullshit terms
do the blind test listen to equipment with the same demo material, ideally with the same volume and see what difference you can hear as the equipment improves, when you can't hear any difference stop moving up unless its for aesthetics (some high end stuff is beautiful to my eyes)

JHD · 12-10-2010, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

there is a lot of snake oil in the land of audiophiles...

I can relate, it's my other money sucking hobby.

Tom S. · 12-10-2010, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Todd Adamson

I see a lot of people in the Pentax Marketplace who specify that their lens is made in Japan. Are there multiple countries of manufacture for the same lens? If so, what are the differences, how do I determine where my lens was made, etc?

There are also some 're-badged' Pentax lenses, which is to say they were made by another company who then put Pentax's name on them. Unfortunately, I can't remember which ones they were right now.

eddie1960 · 12-10-2010, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Tom S.

There are also some 're-badged' Pentax lenses, which is to say they were made by another company who then put Pentax's name on them. Unfortunately, I can't remember which ones they were right now.

I think the first 28-200 back in the early 90's was a re-branded tamron if i'm not mistaken, i owned both (the pentax got damaged so i replaced with the tamron)

Kguru · 12-10-2010, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Todd Adamson

....is there any real evidence out there that MIJ is better than AIV, for any lens?

There may be no concrete evidence, however if one MIJ and one AIV are being sold at the same shop same price it's a safe bet that 9 out of 10 persons who have posted in this thread would automatically go for the MIJ, despite them saying there's no difference

DogLover · 12-10-2010, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Kguru

There may be no concrete evidence, however if one MIJ and one AIV are being sold at the same shop same price it's a safe bet that 9 out of 10 persons who have posted in this thread would automatically go for the MIJ, despite them saying there's no difference

You'd lose that bet. Most people, certainly myself, would base our decision on the condition of the lens itself. Since we're in a store, I would actually try each one out and look for differences. Especially since I had a comparatively bad MIJ FA77, that designation holds no creedence for me.

paperbag846 · 12-10-2010, 12:13 PM

The only reason one would pick a MIJ over an AIV is because of threads like this, where people form an uninformed consensus over which "generation" is sharper.

You see this all the time with guitar gear. I, for example, picked up a Boss CE-2 chorus for $20 many years ago at a garage sale. It's a MIJ. Apparently, they moved production of this pedal to Taiwan at a certain point. Same components. However, "aficionados" claim that the MIJ sounds better. Whatever. It's worth tracking it down ONLY because these "aficionados" will pay me 2X the price.

That's the only reason to care... resale value based on myths.

Agree with them, or not, doesn't matter. You still want their money.

Just don't fall into the trap of overpaying because of what some "aficionado" told you

.

Bart · 12-11-2010, 08:46 AM

Made in Japan is an indication the lens was constructed before the quality control was set to lower standards.
As seems to be the case for most production plants nowadays.

DogLover · 12-11-2010, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Bart

Made in Japan is an indication the lens was constructed before the quality control was set to lower standards.
As seems to be the case for most production plants nowadays.

What are you basing this on? This is the first I've heard of there being lower standards for the AIV's, and it doesn't jibe with my experience (see above).

Bart · 12-11-2010, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Bart

Made in Japan is an indication the lens was constructed before the quality control was set to lower standards.
As seems to be the case for most production plants nowadays.

Originally posted by DogLover

What are you basing this on? This is the first I've heard of there being lower standards for the AIV's, and it doesn't jibe with my experience (see above).

Personal experience.
The fact that your experience doesn't show this, is merely an indication that getting a problem free product is a matter of luck.
I don't like playing the lottery when buying something. This is nowadays much more the case than it used to be. Much more.
This is not limited to Pentax. Of course not.

So for me the 'Made in Japan' is in this case an indication of a time line, not a geographical indicator.

DogLover · 12-11-2010, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Bart

Personal experience.
The fact that your experience doesn't show this, is merely an indication that getting a problem free product is a matter of luck.
I don't like playing the lottery when buying something. This is nowadays much more the case than it used to be. Much more.
This is not limited to Pentax. Of course not.

So for me the 'Made in Japan' is in this case an indication of a time line, not a geographical indicator.

Then I don't think its fair for you to state this opinion as fact. If you had said "IMO", then it would have been a fair statement. If anything, it only props up the "luck" aspect of it. AFAIK, the quality standards didn't change a bit when production was moved to Vietnam. Have they changed at any point in their history? Who knows. But relying on that MIJ label as an indicator of quality could be a mistake, as my experience shows.

Bart · 12-11-2010, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by DogLover

...as my experience shows.

My experience differs.

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12-09-2010, 02:13 PM	#16
farfisa Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Toronto, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,274	eddie1960! With audio gear, you gotta sell snake oil! By the time people can afford the good stuff, they've already blown their hearing cranking those iPod earbuds! I read a great review of a really high end iPod speaker dock that said "it was like being in the room with the computer that compressed those mp3's"

12-09-2010, 03:09 PM	#17
Squier Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxfordshire UK Photos: Albums Posts: 706	I agree Eddie - changing speaker cables say, from cheap nasty Bell Wire to something built for the task is about as big a jump in audio quality that one is ever going to detect. Going from properly manufactured speaker cable to ' snake oil ' speaker cable is throwing green down the drain. best thing anyone can say is go to your HiFi shop, get the staff to demo a set of decent quality £20 speaker cables, then demo a £500 set. Demo them blind. If you cant hear a difference, then there isnt one. Then spend £20

12-09-2010, 03:32 PM	#18
paperbag846 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,395	The deal with MIJ is people are prejudiced and superstitious.

12-10-2010, 06:53 AM	#19
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Originally posted by farfisa eddie1960! I read a great review of a really high end iPod speaker dock that said "it was like being in the room with the computer that compressed those mp3's" LMAO I'll never understand the ridiculous micro tube systems for ipods out there for thousands of bucks people are bloody gullible, I play mp3 through my main system at home (which has tubes) but don't expect sound quality, it's convenience for background, setup a playlist and ignore it for the rest of the night while you entertain. but if i sit down to listen the vinyl or the cd come out (preferably vinyl for the ritual, and i do like the sound, but unlike most diehards realise the warmth I like is a form of distortion that happens to be pleasing to our ears vs some digital distortion that can make you cringe at very small amounts. Tubes are the same THD is high but where the distortion is adds a pleasing effect, transistor based with the same distortion level would make you runs screaming from the room covering your ears) My least favourite thing about high end audio (and i was guilty of doing it when i was in the business) is the un quantifiable language "open" Airy" Transparency"..... all utter bullshit terms do the blind test listen to equipment with the same demo material, ideally with the same volume and see what difference you can hear as the equipment improves, when you can't hear any difference stop moving up unless its for aesthetics (some high end stuff is beautiful to my eyes)

12-10-2010, 07:38 AM	#20
JHD Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 1,406	Originally posted by eddie1960 there is a lot of snake oil in the land of audiophiles... I can relate, it's my other money sucking hobby.

12-10-2010, 10:11 AM	#21
Tom S. Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Michigan Photos: Albums Posts: 4,317	Originally posted by Todd Adamson I see a lot of people in the Pentax Marketplace who specify that their lens is made in Japan. Are there multiple countries of manufacture for the same lens? If so, what are the differences, how do I determine where my lens was made, etc? There are also some 're-badged' Pentax lenses, which is to say they were made by another company who then put Pentax's name on them. Unfortunately, I can't remember which ones they were right now.

12-10-2010, 10:37 AM	#22
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Originally posted by Tom S. There are also some 're-badged' Pentax lenses, which is to say they were made by another company who then put Pentax's name on them. Unfortunately, I can't remember which ones they were right now. I think the first 28-200 back in the early 90's was a re-branded tamron if i'm not mistaken, i owned both (the pentax got damaged so i replaced with the tamron)

12-10-2010, 11:06 AM	#23
Kguru Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Perth - WestAust Posts: 602	Originally posted by Todd Adamson ....is there any real evidence out there that MIJ is better than AIV, for any lens? There may be no concrete evidence, however if one MIJ and one AIV are being sold at the same shop same price it's a safe bet that 9 out of 10 persons who have posted in this thread would automatically go for the MIJ, despite them saying there's no difference

12-10-2010, 11:23 AM	#24
DogLover Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 2,054	Originally posted by Kguru There may be no concrete evidence, however if one MIJ and one AIV are being sold at the same shop same price it's a safe bet that 9 out of 10 persons who have posted in this thread would automatically go for the MIJ, despite them saying there's no difference You'd lose that bet. Most people, certainly myself, would base our decision on the condition of the lens itself. Since we're in a store, I would actually try each one out and look for differences. Especially since I had a comparatively bad MIJ FA77, that designation holds no creedence for me.

12-10-2010, 12:13 PM	#25
paperbag846 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,395	The only reason one would pick a MIJ over an AIV is because of threads like this, where people form an uninformed consensus over which "generation" is sharper. You see this all the time with guitar gear. I, for example, picked up a Boss CE-2 chorus for $20 many years ago at a garage sale. It's a MIJ. Apparently, they moved production of this pedal to Taiwan at a certain point. Same components. However, "aficionados" claim that the MIJ sounds better. Whatever. It's worth tracking it down ONLY because these "aficionados" will pay me 2X the price. That's the only reason to care... resale value based on myths. Agree with them, or not, doesn't matter. You still want their money. Just don't fall into the trap of overpaying because of what some "aficionado" told you .

12-11-2010, 08:46 AM	#26
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	Made in Japan is an indication the lens was constructed before the quality control was set to lower standards. As seems to be the case for most production plants nowadays.

12-11-2010, 11:14 AM	#27
DogLover Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 2,054	Originally posted by Bart Made in Japan is an indication the lens was constructed before the quality control was set to lower standards. As seems to be the case for most production plants nowadays. What are you basing this on? This is the first I've heard of there being lower standards for the AIV's, and it doesn't jibe with my experience (see above).

12-11-2010, 12:38 PM	#28
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	Originally posted by Bart Made in Japan is an indication the lens was constructed before the quality control was set to lower standards. As seems to be the case for most production plants nowadays. Originally posted by DogLover What are you basing this on? This is the first I've heard of there being lower standards for the AIV's, and it doesn't jibe with my experience (see above). Personal experience. The fact that your experience doesn't show this, is merely an indication that getting a problem free product is a matter of luck. I don't like playing the lottery when buying something. This is nowadays much more the case than it used to be. Much more. This is not limited to Pentax. Of course not. So for me the 'Made in Japan' is in this case an indication of a time line, not a geographical indicator.

12-11-2010, 12:51 PM	#29
DogLover Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 2,054	Originally posted by Bart Personal experience. The fact that your experience doesn't show this, is merely an indication that getting a problem free product is a matter of luck. I don't like playing the lottery when buying something. This is nowadays much more the case than it used to be. Much more. This is not limited to Pentax. Of course not. So for me the 'Made in Japan' is in this case an indication of a time line, not a geographical indicator. Then I don't think its fair for you to state this opinion as fact. If you had said "IMO", then it would have been a fair statement. If anything, it only props up the "luck" aspect of it. AFAIK, the quality standards didn't change a bit when production was moved to Vietnam. Have they changed at any point in their history? Who knows. But relying on that MIJ label as an indicator of quality could be a mistake, as my experience shows.

12-11-2010, 12:58 PM	#30
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	Originally posted by DogLover ...as my experience shows. My experience differs.