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02-10-2011, 09:47 PM   #46
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And of course, throughout this thread, not one person has referenced any material that proves the point otherwise either. Lots of personal attacks and opinions but nothing concrete. I have provided 10 examples where the quality suffered, due to miniaturization or otherwise, and those 10 examples are sourced from an independent study. It is up to the person making the buying choice on what to go by, painstaking research conducted by an independent person and published in a document or the opinions of people who seem to have a penchant for making personal attacks over something as trivial as a lens discussion.

02-10-2011, 10:05 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by selar Quote
And of course, throughout this thread, not one person has referenced any material that proves the point otherwise either. Lots of personal attacks and opinions but nothing concrete. I have provided 10 examples where the quality suffered, due to miniaturization or otherwise, and those 10 examples are sourced from an independent study. It is up to the person making the buying choice on what to go by, painstaking research conducted by an independent person and published in a document or the opinions of people who seem to have a penchant for making personal attacks over something as trivial as a lens discussion.

1: you have in fact not proved a single example, much less ten, than can be linked to ‘miniaturization’. simple fact. you haven’t. optical performance and the changing of optical designs are one thing, and can all be independently tested for performance in general, and can thus be tested against previous generations of lenses with the same focal length. (independently, and taking into account completely different optical design) but any evidence gained does not prove that any possible degradation in overall optical performance wether in short numbers or across the board is due to ‘miniaturization.’ im not sure why you cant seem to grasp that, as the size difference going from Takumar to K to M proves that point. miniaturization can be done without changing of optical formula. thus any change and possible loss in performance cant directly be linked to miniaturization. it might be linked to the use of not as good optical formulas, a loss in quality control, even the use of cheaper materials (as we know was the case towards the end of the series, as Pentax pushed into the A series) now wether or not the M series performed subpar overall to the larger (and in most cases optically different) K series is one thing, and im not arguing wether or not they did (I certainly don’t believe that to be the case personally) but what I am saying is that you cant prove (thus far with any information you have provided, and by your original statement) that this tested and documented loss in optical performance was due to miniaturization. simple. as. that. period.

2: I have not made a single personal attack on you, nor do I plan to, no matter how harsh some of my comments might seem.
02-11-2011, 09:23 AM   #48
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University president Woodrow Wilson said that academic disputes are so vicious because the stakes are so low. I forget who said that Internet arguments are like the Special Olympics because even the winner is still a retard. Present company excepted, of course.

As mentioned, the proof of any lens' quality is whether it can deliver a desired image. Not the 'best' image, just the WANTED image. What is 'best'? The best lens is the one you use; the worst lens is the one you *don't* use, especially if you don't even have it. Thus for me, the tiny Industar-50-2 in my kit is better than the great K50/1.2 that I don't have.

And when I compare the 45 Fifty's in my inventory, I don't quibble over which is 'best' -- I just savor the different qualities of each. My Fast Fifty's are labeled SMC-FA and SuperTakumar, and Yashica-ML and -DX, and Meyer Oreston or Pentacon, and Olympus and Sears (Tomioka) and Argus (Chinon) and Mamiya-Sekor and Rikenon and Petri and Helios -- and I don't measure their individual MTF's, and I DON'T CARE!

And other factors come into play. My 'fastest' Fifty is a Sears-Tomioka 55/1.4 and it's a great beast. But my *favorite* Fifty's are the MacroTak 50/4 (1:1) because it's so sharp, and a little aluminium CZJ Tessar 50/2.8 in Exakta mount since it has 12 iris blades (BOKEH MONSTER!), rather than the 5 blades on its M42 Zebra version. Or I'll use an Enna Tele-Sandmar 100/4.5 (10 blades) rather than my Meyer Trioplan 100/2.8 (15 blades) or SuperTak 105/2.8 (6 blades) because the Enna just has a unique character. Best optics? Nope. Best flavour? Yes, at times.

They're all just tools. MY HAMMER IS BETTER THAN YOUR HAMMER. That's nice. Zzzz...

Last edited by RioRico; 02-11-2011 at 08:45 PM.
02-11-2011, 02:52 PM   #49
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Wow, what the heck did I start? Lol


Anyways, I found the 135 I was looking for through a forum member and will be buying it shortly!

Yes, the Red Deer to Edmonton drive really sucks, especially in this weather. Usually the area aroud Red Deer could be thought of as Albertas "bremuda triangle"... Took me four hours to get to Red Deer from Edmonton iln mid January due to the snow storms we've been getting.

I'm an Edmontonian, and the sale was from downtown to south side. I just don't have the ability to get downtown when that store works on bankers hours and I work 12 hour shifts monday thru Friday... Sucks cus my wifes the recptionist for my company too, making it harder

I'm keeping my eyes open... Someone locally just put all three lenses I was hunting for along with a 50mm 1.4 up on kijiji... $300 per lens. sounds like a rip off to me

02-11-2011, 03:29 PM   #50
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KEH in Georgia has some M 200s and others for sale. Not sure if they ship to Canada.
02-11-2011, 05:41 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by StephenMerola Quote
KEH in Georgia has some M 200s and others for sale. Not sure if they ship to Canada.
they do and keh is a major source of my medium format gear
they rate stuff very conservatively so finding a good shooter at a low price from them is easy
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