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03-14-2011, 06:49 AM   #16
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Egg salad.

My comment about resolving the problem meant how to overcome the loss of illuminationthat results from extreme magnification. No matter what you do, there is only so much light that can enter the front of a lens. Magnification spreads that light out over a larger area, hence the light hitting the film/sensor goes down as magnification goes up. Best macro results use a flash because the duration is short and any vibration is mitigated

03-14-2011, 02:32 PM   #17
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I didn't intend to do super-macros (micro?) handheld.
I'd still need a lighting set-up but this is something I can think about when I have the means in my hands.

Since this is al lot of information to process and think about it could take some time until I finally post again.

I guess you all already knew that but if not: your participation and advice is highly apprechiated.

Looks like I'm going for bellows + reversed lens or extension tubes on bellows with non-reversed lens.
03-14-2011, 05:22 PM   #18
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Good luck in whichever direction you pursue macro!

I'm also looking into bellows, but reversing was so inexpensive ($10) I simply had to give it a shot.

This is the item and supplier I used:
77mm 77-77 male to male Macro reverse coupling ring - eBay (item 350244359177 end time Mar-18-11 03:49:14 PDT)
03-27-2011, 07:19 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
Eureka!



A partial solution is to reverse mount a camera lens with a long flange registry distance!

Medium format lenses meet this criteria. Here's a short list from Lens Adapters - Photoethnography.com's Classic Camera DB

Lens type.........Registration, mm
Hasselblad .........74.90
Kiev 88 .............82.10
Pentax 6x7 .......84.95
Mamiya RZ ......105.00
Mamiya RB ......112.00

See Camera Mounts Sorted by Register for more.

For example, buy a $100USD Kiev 88 (Pentacon six) wide angle lens and reverse it on a bellows! It will meet your working distance and mag specs. Here's a 45mm example: Lens "Mir-26V" 3.5/45mm for KIev-88 TTL - eBay (item 160519719715 end time Mar-15-11 03:47:02 PDT)

The appropriate estimation equations for reversed camera lenses are:
Reversed.lens.working.distance = f/m + registration distance
Reversed.lens.extension.on.Pentax.K = f(1+m) - 45.5

working distance.Kiev88.45mm = 45/5 + 82 = 91mm
bellows.extension.Kiev88.45mm = 45(1+5) - 45.5 = 224.5mm

You won't find many shorter focal length medium format lenses that aren't fish-eye, so a compromise would be an Adaptall, T-mount, or Leitz Visoflex I lens:

Lens type................Registration, mm
Tamron T Mount ..........55.00
Tamron T2 Adaptall ......55.00
Leitz Visoflex I ..............65.50

For a $30USD reversed 28mm Tamron Tamron Adaptall 2 28mm f/2.5 Wide Angle Fast Lens Canon - eBay (item 230594399533 end time Mar-13-11 18:39:47 PDT)

working distance.Tamron.28 = 28/5 + 55 = 60.6mm
bellows.extension.Tamron.28 = 28(1+5) - 45.5 = 122.5mm

I think the Tamron Adaptall 28mm approach might come close to simply meeting your needs; a simple bellows would meet your 5x specification and it misses the working distance by only 10mm at 5X and only 3mm at 4X.

Another approach is to reverse mount a wide angle medium format lens onto a long primary lens to take advantage of the MF lens' long registration distance. My tests show that doing so changes the effective registration distance for the MF lens. My 65mm Kiev 88 (Pentacon Six) reverse mounted on a 300mm primary lens has a working distance around 62mm. Not too bad, but it demonstrates how stacking changed the MF lens' effective registration distance (in this case it decreased by at least 20mm)
Some time passed and things settled a bit...

Dave, your information is of great value! That is some comprehensive research.

yeatzee and RXrenesis8:

Yes, I might have exaggerated on the optical degredation with stacked lenses. But in the set-up I used chromatic aberations were rather nasty.
I blame the SMC Pentax - may look way better with another lens.


Normally when I lust for something I have the excitement whenever I see the object of lust - however this didn't really happen here.
So I came to the conclusion that this was more of a *really want* thing not a *need* (ok, need is very subjective. Nobody needs a camera).
Being pragmatic I'll try to keep the potential wast of money down by going the cheaper route first.

Bellows and MF/enlarger lenses are still on my mind but for now I'll go with a set of step-down rings (82-77 for the circumstance I get a Sigma 24-70 one day) to put my 77mm threaded lenses on the macro adapter pro Step down ring set 82-77-72-67-62-58-55-52-49 8pcs bei eBay.de: Lens Accessories (endet 19.04.11 00:52:11 MESZ),
a 77-77 male coupling adapter (thanks RXrenesis8) so I can try my 28 and maybe 16-50 on the 105 and 70-200 77mm 77-77 male to male Macro reverse coupling ring bei eBay.de: Filter Accessories (endet 17.04.11 12:49:14 MESZ),
a simple 2-way focusing rail which should also eliminate the need to get a 2 geared bellows 2 Way Macro Focusing Rail Slider K4G Canon Nikon Pentax bei eBay.de: Tripods (endet 24.04.11 10:00:23 MESZ),
the tele lens hood I was writing about in the other thread which also functions as a fixed extension tube (getting 2 for 148mm extension) for reversed lenses Quality 77mm 77 Tele Telephoto Lens Hood Shade Metal bei eBay.de: Lens Hoods (endet 18.04.11 01:46:41 MESZ)
and to be prepared for the bellows option a cheap M42-PK adapter that allows for infinity focus M42 to Pentax k10d k100d K110D K20D DL adapter infinity bei eBay.de: Lens Accessories (endet 02.04.11 14:07:55 MESZ)

Total cost about $75.
That should keep me busy for some time and reveal if I still feel the urge to go deeper with doing super macros.

Your assistance and advice is highly apprechiated.


Last edited by Egg Salad; 03-27-2011 at 07:24 AM.
03-27-2011, 11:26 AM   #20
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Reversed Focal 28mm on K-x





03-27-2011, 11:41 AM   #21
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Some fixing pins as seen with a reversed 28mm lens (either Pentax M 3.5/28 or Sigma 1.8/28 - used both of them).
Magnification around 3:1. f/11

Working distance remains an issue.
03-27-2011, 12:12 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Egg Salad Quote
Working distance remains an issue.
Working distance is ALWAYS an issue! (Either that or extension!)


Steve
03-27-2011, 02:04 PM   #23
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working distance...

QuoteOriginally posted by Egg Salad Quote
Some fixing pins as seen with a reversed 28mm lens (either Pentax M 3.5/28 or Sigma 1.8/28 - used both of them).
Magnification around 3:1. f/11

Working distance remains an issue.
Your stacked hoods should work well as extension tubes. To gain working distance use reversed lenses with long registry distances; medium format or Tamron Adaptall. A mir 65 would be a good lens - as it is 65mm you may want to get one more hood to use as an extension tube to increase magnification.

03-28-2011, 04:29 AM   #24
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For the kind of magnification you are seeking, I would avise to get a "real" macro lens designed to work in the 2:1 to 5:1 magnification range. I have the Canon 35/2.8 Macrophoto lens, which is a short lens ressembling an enlarging lens, with an adjustable aperture but without any focusing helix. this lens is used mounted on a bellows in order to achieve a 2:1 to 6:1 magnification ratio. As the lens is equipped with standard RMS thread, it can be mounted on a Pentax bellows with the help of an easily available RMS to Pentax K adapter.


Photo Credit: http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/fdlenses/fdmacro/2035macro.htm

Here's a page about this lens on the excellent Photography in Malaysia website.

And here's an example of what can be achieved with this lens (not my picture, unfortunately):


Photo Credit to Charles Krebs

This rather scarce lens is currently available from Keh, but there are many similar lenses from other manufacturers. You can find more details on the Macrolenses website.

Cheers!

Abbazz
03-28-2011, 01:08 PM   #25
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newarts:
Unsurprisingly, every MF lens except the Kiev/Pentacon Six that would qualify is not necessarily out of my budget but out of reasonable cost level.
The lens you linked seems optimal - pretty short in FL but long in register distance.
Like I said before this could double as a tilt-shift lens, too. 43mm left to get it done.

Which is why I would rule out everything smaller than MF - if I invest in a lens I don't really need it should offer another use, too.
Although $30 for the Adaptall is near to nothing...

For now I won't get another lens hood acting as extension tube - first I have to see how this works out. If it does well and I feel the urge to do it further I can still get a bellow + some other lens.
Give me another 3-4 weeks (don't know how long shipping from China will take) to test my new stuff and then I can tell more.

Bellows + MF lens still looks like a wonderful solution.

Abbazz:
No doubt this dedicated super-macro lens will outperform every workaround I can come off with.
But as I said I'm not even sure right now how much investment is reasonable for something I just *want*.
$300+ is definitely too much. Also I don't have a sufficient tripod or lighting set-up yet to get everything from such a lens.

The macrolens website is also great but doesn't really help if you don't know what you are looking for.
I know Pentax and maybe Nikon lenses - but nothing outside of 35mm lenses.
03-28-2011, 01:14 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Egg Salad Quote
newarts:
Unsurprisingly, every MF lens except the Kiev/Pentacon Six that would qualify is not necessarily out of my budget but out of reasonable cost level.
The lens you linked seems optimal - pretty short in FL but long in register distance.
Like I said before this could double as a tilt-shift lens, too. 43mm left to get it done..
I use the kiev 65 with a hartblei tilt adapter both on & off bellows. It works well. The hartblei adapter costs $125 usd. The kiev 65 is preferable to the 45 I think.

Good luck to you!
03-28-2011, 03:00 PM   #27
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This adapter? Hartblei Tilt Adapter for Pentacon Six Lens - Pentax bei eBay.de: Lens Accessories (endet 02.04.11 07:14:31 MESZ)
Will consider your lens suggestion. What makes the 65mm better than the 45mm?
03-28-2011, 04:18 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Egg Salad Quote
This adapter? Hartblei Tilt Adapter for Pentacon Six Lens - Pentax bei eBay.de: Lens Accessories (endet 02.04.11 07:14:31 MESZ)
Will consider your lens suggestion. What makes the 65mm better than the 45mm?
That is the adapter I have. It works well. It is m42 which is ok but PK may be available from the factory.

The 65mm Mir is reported to be sharper than the 45mm version. Goggle will find reviews for you. There may be a lot of variation lens to lens.

Last edited by newarts; 03-28-2011 at 04:30 PM.
03-29-2011, 04:26 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Egg Salad Quote
No doubt this dedicated super-macro lens will outperform every workaround I can come off with.
But as I said I'm not even sure right now how much investment is reasonable for something I just *want*.
$300+ is definitely too much. Also I don't have a sufficient tripod or lighting set-up yet to get everything from such a lens.

The macrolens website is also great but doesn't really help if you don't know what you are looking for.
I know Pentax and maybe Nikon lenses - but nothing outside of 35mm lenses.
The Macrolens site is a great help when you navigate eBay.

Believe me, there are some great bargains waiting out there. There are lots of discarded industrial lenses from various equipment (microfilm readers, scanners, repro equipment, etc.) that can be recycled as macro lenses. These are often high quality lenses, with good coatings and they are able to deliver superb resolution when used in their specified range. For example, if you feel like making your own adapter, it might be worth considering one of these Ilex lenses (at least, the price seems right) and mount it on a bellows :

ILEX 5.25X OPTICAL LENS ASSY - Surplus Shed

ILEX 2.75X OPTICAL LENS ASSY - Surplus Shed

ILEX 1.75X OPTICAL LENS ASSY - Surplus Shed

You also mention you don't have sufficient lighting or tripod set-up. I don't think you will be able to shoot at 5x magnification without a good tripod and some kind of lighting. You don't need to spend a lot of money (a table clamp with a focusing rail plus a pair of office halogen lights or led lights will do the job for indoors shooting), but you'll certainly need the equipment!

Cheers!

Abbazz
03-29-2011, 05:25 AM   #30
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Abbazz:

I'm intrigued... So, is it just a matter of mounting those lenses onto a bellows? Then focusing by adjusting the bellows in or out?
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