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05-08-2011, 05:22 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
1) The FA 77 shows much more CA in high-contrast situations than the DA 70. It's sometimes incredibly irritating.

2) The FA 77 also flares up more than the DA 70 on a digital camera - regardless of the "ghostless" coatings.

3) 1/5th the distortion? no.
I agree the CA can be annoying in certain limit cases. Then I just slap on a tailored desat layer in PP. The fix takes about 20 seconds... 30 seconds if I haven't had my coffee. But in tests the DA70 has more CA... solution just as easy! Since we do not have access to a true APO design, we just have to live with this issue, which I am perfectly happy doing.

Flare? Never once seen flare in thousands of shots, sorry.

Distortion? Both are vanishingly small. I wouldn't choose one over the other based on this factor, but it is in the list for completeness. You can deny it if you like, but then I'd want to see your test results to compare with those who have proved the opposite.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
What settles such a decision for me is whether there is a preference for the microcontrast and rendition unique to the FA ltds, the need for wider aperture than f/2.4 or a more solid build in the physical lens.
And that is the bottom line. CU all in another over-extended thread!

05-08-2011, 07:54 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
Some comments on your list:

1) The FA 77 shows much more CA in high-contrast situations than the DA 70. It's sometimes incredibly irritating.

2) The FA 77 also flares up more than the DA 70 on a digital camera - regardless of the "ghostless" coatings.

3) 1/5th the distortion? no.


--


Really, the lens only makes sense if you need that extra-fast aperture. And it also likely costs so much more due to it being full frame (more glass). That's one of the advantages to ASP-C... cheaper lenses...
A lot of this is mythology perpetuated by the fact that photozone did a torture test on the FA 77mm ltd and did not do the same torture test on the DA 70mm. While I look at those from time to time, it helps to keep in mind that there was some bias that went into the testing of those 2 lenses. However, they were a little less biased in their re-test on the newer body.

Even the Zeiss Planar T* 85mm/1.4 isn't perfect in regards to CA and PF. If the DA 70 ltd has an advantage in PF compared to the FA and Zeiss, it is because its maximum aperture is only 2.4.
05-08-2011, 08:00 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by bessa66 Quote
I'm looking for a portrait lens to do some model shoots in near future. Main use would be close up head shots or head and shoulders with some full length body shots. I am torn between the FA 77m f1.8 Ltd, Da 70mm f2.4 and FA 100mm f2.8 Macro WR. I've read how 'magic' the 77mm lens is and how sharp the DA 70mm is. How does the 77mm AF speed compare to the Da 70mm? I have read coflicting reports on which is faster. The 100mm macro was a late entry but has the additional macro versatility. Is the 77mm truly that good and worth the extra cash?
Regardless of which lens you ultimately pick, you are going to end up with a fine instrument. If you do macro, the D FA 100 WR may be the way to go.
05-08-2011, 08:35 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
We are talking about 130g which is a non-issue for me.
I certainly agree it's a small difference in the grand scheme of things. But then, so is virtually every single thing on the list of FA77 advantages (eg, the difference between 0.1% and 0.5% distortion, or 0.19 versus 0.38 CA using Photozone numbers).

QuoteQuote:
There is not now, nor has there ever been, evidence that this lens is more expensive because it is full-frame.
Hmm, I would have thought it not very controversial to suggest that covering a larger sensor would require more glass and that in turn would cost more money. But you're right, I can't actually *prove* this. So I won't list FF compatibility as an actual disadvantage - just a complete and total non-issue for many.

QuoteQuote:
I thought I'd like this feature but didn't, mostly because manual focusing with such a narrow ring, small throw, and ill-damped movement is a pain.
That's subjective, though. I find it works quite well.

QuoteQuote:
If you wish to rate Quick Shift Focus as more important than the FA Limited rendering, you are free to do so
"FA Limited rendering" is another of those subjective things. I personally just don't see it, and I've looked at plenty of samples. I mean, sure, the images look great to me, but so do those from the DA70. So yes, quick shift is much more important to me than a subjective difference I don't personally see.

QuoteQuote:
As I am free to find that priority rather bizarre when one can simply put any lens into manual focus mode.
It's called *quick* shift for a reason. The speed with which I can take advantage of MF while in AF mode is an integral part of how I shoot. Admittedly, not portraits specifically - it's more about my concert photography, and other event/candid photography.

Oh, yeah, speaking of "quick", that reminds me - focus speed is another very real advantage for the DA70. How significant that is depends, again, on priorities, but you can add that to the DA70 advantages list.

Anyhow, again, the point isn't to say the DA70 really is better for everyone, and no, of course, one should have to go out of one's way to identify one's opinions as such. It just seemed to me your initial post seemed to have gone a bit overboard the other way, making it seem like it *wasn't* just subjective, and that *all* the objective traits favored the FA77.

05-08-2011, 08:40 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by DogLover Quote
Anybody, using any brand, can buy a lens that will render like the 70.
Perhaps, although I personally don't see the differences in rendering that others do. But I can say that while it might be possible to buy a lens for another system that *renders* like the DA70, there is nothing else anywhere for any system that *handles* like the DA70.
05-08-2011, 11:32 AM   #36
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On bad reasoning that slides into solipsism

Marc, apparently everything is "subjective" to you... even obviously measurable things like how big the focus ring on a lens is. And anything that isn't subjective you dismiss as irrelevant. Sorry, but no matter what your personal preferences, that is simply very bad reasoning.

Even the distinctive FA Limited rendering is not subjective but can be shown to be a direct product of different decisions made during the optical design process. I am not an expert on this but I suppose you might at least acknowledge that the lens designer is? Or would you say his knowledge too is completely subjective?
05-08-2011, 11:36 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Marc, apparently everything is "subjective" to you... even obviously measurable things like how big the focus ring on a lens is. And anything that isn't subjective you dismiss as irrelevant. Sorry, but no matter what your personal preferences, that is simply very bad reasoning.

Even the distinctive FA Limited rendering is not subjective but can be shown to be a direct product of different decisions made during the optical design process. I am not an expert on this but I suppose you might at least acknowledge that the lens designer is? Or would you say his knowledge too is completely subjective?
The designer has since retired so his knowledge is irrelevant making our FA 77mm LTD lenses irrelevant. Hysterical

Edit: O crap, the designer of my Pentax K and Zebra lens has died. I need to go see if my collection has vaporized.



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05-08-2011, 11:52 AM   #38
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On the Quick Shift focus "feature"

Short Version
Marc, why not simply use manual focus?

Long Version
Quick Shift focus is a solution looking for a problem. I either trust the AF or I don't. I either want the noise of the focus motor or I don't. I can't think of a single situation in which I think "I trust the AF to nail the focus... oh no, wait I now must change my mind and over-ride it." Perhaps if I had no clue as to when I might use AF this indecision "feature" might be useful. But I do actually have a clue, and so have plenty of time to switch from AF to MF. I think this operation takes about 100 milliseconds. It has never caused me to miss a shot. (And if it did, one might consider that changing aperture takes time and so might make one miss a shot. C'est la vie.)

I question your claim that Quick Shift focus is the fastest method to use. First you have to wait for AF, then make a decision that this is not good enough (a decision that is almost impossible to make in an instant), then move to MF. Why not simply manually focus in the first place? Quite obviously that is faster. People have been nailing focus manually for decades without such a "feature".

The second technique some prefer is to decouple the AF from the shutter button.

And finally what about the Quick Shift Focus bug? I don't have a DA70 here right now but I recall it is the same. Quick Shift Focus always shows the hexagon even when you are no longer in focus. The indicator is useless as an aid and so this technique suffers in exactly those situations in which you need it the most.

Hence my claim that choosing a lens primarily for this feature is bizarre. By this reasoning all Leica, Zeiss, Takumar etc. glass is also inferior to the DA70. Because no matter how well these lenses render they lack Quick Shift Focus.

P.S. My domain of experience is similar to yours, since I too get paid mostly for event photography. 95% of the time I am in MF.

05-08-2011, 01:20 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
LOL
In studio you wouldn't see any significant difference with good zoom too, when good studio light.
We'll agree that I think you are wrong and let it go at that.
05-08-2011, 01:22 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by yusuf Quote
I will suggest FA77 over 70. DA70 is too slow at f2.4, and you likely to miss FA77 rendering. In case you don't like, you can sell Fa77 easily since there are a lots of buyers.

You might want to also consider Fa50 as well.
Absolutely not true. The half stop between the two doesn't make a whit of difference, and there isn't enough difference in overall rendering to give the 77 the edge either.
05-08-2011, 02:15 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Absolutely not true. The half stop between the two doesn't make a whit of difference, and there isn't enough difference in overall rendering to give the 77 the edge either.
Always good for a laugh.
05-08-2011, 02:31 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by bessa66 Quote
Is the 77mm truly that good and worth the extra cash?
It is that good and only you can decide whether it is worth the extra cash. The DA 70 has some things going for it and is probably the better lens for general use (border sharpness picks up earlier) but for portraits, AFAIC, there is no arguing that the FA 77/1.8 has the edge.

People have posted direct comparisons and although sometimes the differences can be subtle, AFAIC, they make all the difference regarding emotional impact. The DA 70/2.4 is very competent and you will certainly produce portraits which seem nothing left to be desired.

However, the FA 77/1.8 will often go beyond that and deliver a shot that is more than just competently rendered. Robin basically said it all already, just supporting his argument regarding rendering.

You might also want to look at the Sigma 85/1.4 which would give you some more artistic room to play with shallow DOF. I don't know yet whether it has the same/similar "magic" as the FA 77/1.8. It is a cracker lens, no doubt, but not sure yet whether the pixies have dusted it as much as they dusted the FA 77/1.8.

Regarding full body shots: Just use another lens for these. I don't think it makes sense to cover both head and full body shots with just one lens. I'd get a specialist portrait lens for the closer shots and deal with the full body shots with a wider lens.

P.S.: Regarding quickshift: I think this feature only makes real sense for long telephoto lenses and/or lenses with a long focus throw. You can then use MF to quickly get the focus in the right ballpark and to then engage AF to do the fine tuning. That's the only way I'd use quickshift. If one uses it to fine-tune after AF, one might as well just MF from the beginning (avoiding all potential mistargeting of AF). Hence, I don't regard quickshift on the DA 70/2.4 as a feature worth mentioning, the bad ergonomics not even considered. But others' milage varies, I appreciate that.

Last edited by Class A; 05-08-2011 at 02:36 PM.
05-08-2011, 03:14 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
there is no arguing that the FA 77/1.8 has the edge.
Apparently there is, in fact, much arguing on this point.


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Regarding quickshift: I think this feature only makes real sense for long telephoto lenses and/or lenses with a long focus throw.
I hadn't thought of that, even though I own the DA55-300mm. But I see your point.
05-08-2011, 03:52 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Always good for a laugh.
Have you used both extensively enough to make more than wind?
05-08-2011, 04:28 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Have you used both extensively enough to make more than wind?
I wouldn't even need to know these lens existed, let alone use either of them, to recognise the fallacious arguments you employ. According to you, improved light capture doesn't matter. Improved rendering doesn't matter. If you believed that was true then you'd use the kit lens and be happy. But you don't, because you prefer to troll and insult. How boring!

P.S. "If you think you are being ignored, you more than likely are, and it is because I don't think you have anything useful to say."
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