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05-09-2011, 03:28 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If you have a Photoshop action that turns the DA 40 into the FA 31 then you could earn a lot of money with it.
LOL, that's a great example because in my experience the FA31 is simply head and shoulders above the DA21 and DA40 in IQ, it's not even close. On buying the FA31 I realised the hype was fully justified for that lens.

05-09-2011, 04:13 PM - 1 Like   #77
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Erm...

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Conclusion: Mike Johnston says the exact opposite what you were suggesting he said.
No. He said (as I said) that they *are* the best (or some of the best) autofocus lenses in the business. He *also* said that in the realm of digital, the *best* is not really so important anymore (this is the point that is so often glazed over). This is why, I think, when you compare images from the DA 70 and FA 77 on digital, it is hard to call a clear winner.

Point 1) The FA 77 makes a lot of sense if you are shooting film. I've said this so many times. On digital, the differences become very slight unless 2) you require f1.8.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If you have a Photoshop action that turns the DA 40 into the FA 31 then you could earn a lot of money with it.
I said very specifically that the FA limiteds are the clear winner if you are comparing the 31 to the 21. No PP will overcome those differences. I think that's why the 31 is the most sought-after lens... no other lens available will get you close to it's look. I don't feel the same is true with the DA 70 and FA 77. Please actually read if you are going to participate in the conversation.

I also compared the 40 with the 43, where I believe the differences are obvious. I think the 43's biggest threat is the FA 50. The decision between the two is simply made: do you prefer creamy bokeh or sharpness?

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
rather than listening to some proclaimed authority.
Marc and Wheatfield have earned authority in my books, because they make *reasoned* arguments that are actually very *logical* and helpful. No one told me to listen to them. They don't dogmatically recommend a specific type of lens to anyone... it's specific to a person's needs.

And as I see it, the FA 77 is a very specialized lens... even within the realm of portraiture. One could have a very good reason for preferring the DA 70 (quickshift, flare resistance), or the DA* 50-135 (flexibility). The FA 77 is *the* lens to use, though, if you need a bokeh machine (f1.8) or film-camera performance.

For some reason, though, you people will keep yapping. Attacking what I say without adding anything of actual substance (saying "it renders better" is not substantiative).

I would be happy to hear an actual contribution, however only Twitch seems to be willing to discuss the actual pros and cons of each lens (perhaps because he has owned both of them?)
05-09-2011, 04:39 PM - 1 Like   #78
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paperbag846, come on now, you are talking far too rationally for any internet forum.
05-09-2011, 04:58 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
I repeat, it's very strange someone is trying to argue with this simple fact, just like you )
DA Ltds are no match to FA ones )

If you want to compare the 31LTD to the 35LTD, I would agree.
If you want to compare the 40LTD to the 43 LTD, I would agree.
But the conversation has devolved to the 70LTD and 77LTD, and in this instance, I respectfully submit that you are quite wrong.
Sorry.

05-09-2011, 05:04 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Even people who are knowledgeable in certain aspects of an area can get it wrong for other aspects of the same area. It is never a good idea to rely on authority. If someone prefers the rendering of one lens, they should go for it, rather than listening to some proclaimed authority.


This is a perfect example for quoting out of context.

Directly before the paragraph you quoted, Mike Johnston writes
"A nearly ideal short tele, the 77mm Limited is superb — contrasty, excellent for portraits wide open, with a truly beautiful, delicate bokeh that compliments the almost 3-D vividness of the in-focus image. Tops in its class? There are certainly a lot of great short teles out there. But I can't name an AF SLR short tele I'd put above it."
And then within the same paragraph you quoted from directly before the passage you quote he writes
"Granted, three lenses doth not a legend create. But if you're wondering which autofocus lenses are ne plus ultra, I submit that little has changed since the days of Kennedy and Kent State, Barbie and the Beatles, when "the Pentax" was the best-selling SLR there was and Zeiss was the world's most prestigious cameramaker. "
Directly after the passage you quote he writes
"But when it comes to the best autofocus lenses in the world, whether for a viewfinder camera or SLRs, it's still Zeiss and Pentax, baby, same as the old days."
Conclusion: Mike Johnston says the exact opposite what you were suggesting he said.
The article you are quoting from predates DSLRs that would mount the 77, and most certainly predates the DA Limited lens series.
Times change.
I believe Mike Johnston can also be quoted as saying that the 35mmLTD is the best lens ever (although I do prefer the 31 for it's imaging as much as I would like to prefer the 35 for it's usability).
05-09-2011, 05:13 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by twitch Quote
Maybe I'll take some more side by side shots with the DA70 and FA77 and post them here, see if we can see that pixie dust


that would be great. also, don't forget to show full crops as well. and similar openings.
05-09-2011, 05:32 PM   #82
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In terms of fervor for the FA Ltds., I am probably second only to Robin on this forum, but I will admit that the 70 v. 77 thing is too close to call. For me, obviously, it is the 77, but the sole reason is for the rendering. I absolutely see a difference in the kinds of shots I use it for. But I realize that there will be some who prefer the more "normal" rendering of the 70. I have seen some beautiful shots from the 70. But never in a million years is it gonna replace my beloved 77.

Which brings me to my point. Who exactly are we trying to convince here? Each other? I think that by now we pretty much all know how we feel about these two, and have made our decisions. The argument, possibly the most common one here on PF, has grown tiresome. Can't we all just get along? How about a cease-fire where we all agree to not disrespect either the 70 or the 77? Maybe Adam should make us all sign a pledge or something.

However, if somebody wants to talk smack about the other two FA Ltds., then all bets are off!
05-09-2011, 06:25 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
He *also* said that in the realm of digital, the *best* is not really so important anymore (this is the point that is so often glazed over). This is why, I think, when you compare images from the DA 70 and FA 77 on digital, it is hard to call a clear winner.
He refers to the "digital age" as allowing users to (quote) "mimic" the look of lenses through post-processing. If you are happy with "mimicking" be my guest. If Mike Johnston really believed that the digital age made any lens differences moot, he could have cut the article short after the second paragraph. Note that he doesn't say that digital sensors vs film have anything to do with differences in lenses becoming less important. That's your invention (and not a good one, unless you can further substantiate your claim).

QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
I said very specifically that the FA limiteds are the clear winner if you are comparing the 31 to the 21. No PP will overcome those differences.
I've read your first statement before, but how am I supposed to know that it implies the second in your book? I, anyhow, just chose a clear example, without any intention to reference anything you said before, except your claim that PP can be sufficient to make one lens look like another.

I don't see a "DA 70/2.4 -> FA 77/1.8" Photoshop action having a chance of doing what you stipulate is possible either.

QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
Please actually read if you are going to participate in the conversation.



QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
Marc and Wheatfield have earned authority in my books, because they make *reasoned* arguments that are actually very *logical* and helpful.
So you also believe Wheatfield when he recommends (a hint he got from a friend that "knows more about these things") to not fill an SD card but always leave some capacity left? Sorry, but this is just nonsense and the fact that Wheatfield posts it here doesn't make it right. "Correctness by Authority" is a flawed concept.

QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
For some reason, though, you people will keep yapping. Attacking what I say without adding anything of actual substance (saying "it renders better" is not substantiative).

You must be watching a different movie.


Last edited by Class A; 05-09-2011 at 06:53 PM.
05-09-2011, 06:36 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
The article you are quoting from predates DSLRs that would mount the 77, and most certainly predates the DA Limited lens series.
Times change.
Are you saying that digital sensors change in how one ranks lenses? If so, how so?

Are you saying that Mike Johnston would have put the DA 70/2.4 among the FA Ltds? We cannot know (unless someone asks him) but I highly doubt that he would have.

QuoteOriginally posted by DogLover Quote
Can't we all just get along?
Good point and I'm all for that.

Note, however, that someone started all this by stating something along the lines of "there is no point in considering the FA 77/1.8, the DA 70/2.4 is just as good". It must be possible to make a counterpoint to such statements.
05-09-2011, 06:39 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
So you also believe Wheatfield when he recommends (a hint he got from a friend that "knows more about these things") to not fill an SD card but always leave some capacity left?
In this case, from what I know about computers (quite a bit), this does make sense, unless you want to shorten the life of your flash memory (and lose a *whole card* of pictures one day).

Also, leaving some space is good for those unexpected moments...
05-09-2011, 06:41 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
He refers to the "digital age" as allowing users to (quote) "mimic" the look of lenses through post-processing.
Sensors record light very differently from film. Go read up on it. I fear your knowledge of technology is rather limited... so continuing this conversation makes no sense. I'm late for a very important date .
05-09-2011, 06:41 PM   #87
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This has been an odd thread, with people who generally seem to give good advice ragging on each other in rather impolite ways. I've never used a 77 or a 70, BUT... :-) Comparing a 40 to a 43 (both of which I own and use) I would say the 43 is just a little better, but on a more limited budget a 40 plus another lens would do someone just as well. If the 70 is that much closer to the 77, as many here seem to say, I would guess the same calculation applies.

Reading these forums is the gateway to LBA, by the way. X lens is better than Y? Maybe I Have To Have It!
05-09-2011, 07:01 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
In this case, from what I know about computers (quite a bit), this does make sense, unless you want to shorten the life of your flash memory (and lose a *whole card* of pictures one day).

Also, leaving some space is good for those unexpected moments...
Wheatfield's argument wasn't about potentially losing many pictures (which, BTW, would be an argument against big cards, not against filling cards), it wasn't about being prepared for unexpected moments either.

I'm happy to try to dig it up for you, if you like. It didn't make sense.

Regarding your "shorten the life of your flash memory" argument: This doesn't make sense either. The best way to avoid ageing your flash memory is not to use it at all. If, however, you are using a card, it doesn't matter whether you fill it each time or stop at say 75%. SD card controllers perform wear leveling so you can use them as you like, the controller makes sure that some blocks don't receive more cycles than others.

QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
I fear your knowledge of technology is rather limited... so continuing this conversation makes no sense. I'm late for a very important date .
Maybe, for instance in the light about your comment about SD cards, you shouldn't be sitting on such a high horse.
05-09-2011, 07:06 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Note, however, that someone started all this by stating something along the lines of "there is no point in considering the FA 77/1.8, the DA 70/2.4 is just as good". It must be possible to make a counterpoint to such statements.
I believe it shows personal bias on the owners part. and I would agree to what Nick understood as well regarding rendering differences. putting the PP workflow in the discussion would eliminate any sensible argument and somehow contradicts the statement that both lenses aren't that far from each other. if so, then why PP to make lenses appear the same? how about the FA50/1.4 and DA*55/1.4? same nonsensible argument when PP is put right into the picture.

and for what it's worth, the Sigma 85mm both trumps the FA77 and DA70 lenses.
05-09-2011, 07:07 PM - 1 Like   #90
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Looks like this thread has degenerated to silliness because one can argue till the cows come home and not come to a definitive answer, and I think the threadstarter has already hopped off...

Unless one can't shoot for nuts, anyone who can competently shoot portraits will know that both the DA70 and FA77 are more than adequate for portraits. I'm guessing some who make the loudest noises probably might not even have owned both lenses and rely on the internet and other sources to try to lend credence to their claims, which means squat imo. People I know who do actually own both lenses (and more than one copy at that) know what each lens can do. They pick the one they like and go out and shoot. So what's the point of arguing? Post more pictures...
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