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05-09-2011, 07:20 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
In this case, from what I know about computers (quite a bit), this does make sense, unless you want to shorten the life of your flash memory (and lose a *whole card* of pictures one day).

Also, leaving some space is good for those unexpected moments...
flash card lifespan and reliability is not dependent on memory space. it is dependent on the number of cycles of read/write the SD card undergoes. leaving memory space does not prevent file corruption. it just occurs but not due to no available memory space. to give a much clearer comparison, it's like a car that undergoes certain mileage cycle for change oil maintenance. it's the same. if you don't use your car that often, it doesn't need to go to the garage. also, a breakdown on cars also occurs even if isn't due for a change oil.

05-09-2011, 07:42 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
People I know who do actually own both lenses (and more than one copy at that) know what each lens can do. They pick the one they like and go out and shoot. So what's the point of arguing?
The point of arguing is that "owning both lenses" and "picking the one you like" is not an option for most who make an enquiry about which lens to get.

Yes, the OP seems to have disappeared, but
  1. sometimes other people with the same question find threads like this one through a search and it makes sense to provide them with more information than the OP received when he left.
  2. I guess we are also trying to inform each other in the hopes of future posters receiving more balanced advice than any of us might have given before the discussion.
05-09-2011, 07:52 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
flash card lifespan and reliability is not dependent on memory space. it is dependent on the number of cycles of read/write the SD card undergoes.
This assumes 0% fragmentation, which is only likely if you don't fill up your card.
05-09-2011, 07:58 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
This assumes 0% fragmentation, which is only likely if you don't fill up your card.
Most importantly: How does fragmentation relate to wear?

Furthermore, assuming you fully clear your card after downloading the images (or even format it), what sources of fragmentation are you talking about?

How many times do you delete an image in camera and then keep on shooting? To what level of fragmentation would this lead and why would you not experience fragmentation if you don't fill the card? Due to "wear leveling" you don't have control over which blocks gets used when so you might experience fragmentation even though more contiguous space would have been available on a non-full car.

Again, why would you be bothered by fragmentation on an SD card at all (see my first question)?


Last edited by Class A; 05-09-2011 at 08:04 PM.
05-09-2011, 08:24 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
This assumes 0% fragmentation, which is only likely if you don't fill up your card.
this is a flash (SD) card we are talking about. why would you worry about fragmentation? this isn't Hard Disk.

take it from me, I know alot more about this stuff. don't try to win argument with concerns to this (especially computer stuff), just my advice.
05-09-2011, 08:31 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
computer stuff
ok, you win. feels good?

I'm assuming your vast knowledge of computer technology is sufficient to understand how different film and digital sensors are, then?
05-09-2011, 08:45 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
ok, you win. feels good?

I'm assuming your vast knowledge of computer technology is sufficient to understand how different film and digital sensors are, then?
oh boy, you really got some issues regarding acceptance of being wrong or having no idea. so tell me, where is this discussion heading to? where I couldn't answer the question which goes on circles? until everybody says you're right? and you know everything? what do I know?

ok, you're are right about everything and every point of reasoning you had is valid. happy now?

anyway, I will stop posting here because this thread has become silly because of egos.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 05-09-2011 at 08:55 PM.
05-09-2011, 08:48 PM   #98
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ClassA, if the best you can come up with is crap bordering on an ad hominem attack, I will gratefully bow out of this conversation and let you bask in your bombastic sense of superiority, especially since you have now taken the thread from somewhat on topic to not even close to anything resembling the topic.
IIRC, the OP asked about portrait lenses, not how good you are at personal attacks.
But I assure you that my knowledge on the original topic comes from ownership and first hand use of both lenses in question that I know what I am talking about in this particular instance.
Can you say the same? Have you used both lenses through several thousand exposures in various shooting situations?
Or are you just running your mouth attempting to justify ownership of a fairly expensive lens?
One of the nice things about owning both is that I don't have a dog in the show you seem to be trying to run, and so can make a logical judgement of the lenses in question based on the qualities of both.

05-09-2011, 09:30 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
ClassA, if the best you can come up with is crap bordering on an ad hominem attack, I will gratefully bow out of this conversation and let you bask in your bombastic sense of superiority, especially since you have now taken the thread from somewhat on topic to not even close to anything resembling the topic.
I feel you are confusing me with someone else.

Where did I border on an ad hominem attack?
I only introduced your "SD card" advice as an example that it is not a good idea to trust someone blindly no matter how competent he/she is in another area. You are surely great in several areas and, FWIW, I often appreciate your "no BS" approach to posting in this forum. I generally like your posts. That doesn't stop me from observing that you don't always know what you are talking about (SD cards) and disputing whether your opinion of a particular lens is the final word on the matter (as others, not you, have suggested).

If you track down my early posts, they were specifically addressed to the OP and I think you will agree that they contained useful advice. If I have gone over board posting very recently then it is because others have taken the thread off-topic and made claims/statements that I had a hard time leaving alone. In the future, I'll try to care less because my attempts to mean well and provide counterpoints to mistaken views offered here (e.g, about SD card wear) don't seem to be received well.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
IIRC, the OP asked about portrait lenses, not how good you are at personal attacks.
I see some posts in this thread which can easily be categorised as containing personal attacks. Some of them against me. With what post did I personally attack anyone?

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
But I assure you that my knowledge on the original topic comes from ownership and first hand use of both lenses in question that I know what I am talking about in this particular instance.
I don't dispute your ownership/experience but it is a frequent experience for me to care about things that other people dismiss as "insignificant". I consider the possibility that in your use of the lenses
  • the differences do not occur (as a kit lens would be fine for most studio shots as well), or
  • they are there but you focus on different things and regard the differences that are important to me as insignificant.
I don't see how the above makes me a bad person.

There is also the possibility the that lenses are indeed too similar in their rendering to make a fuss about it. My experience (looking at many, many images shot by others) tells me otherwise. I'm looking for an ultimate portrait lens myself. Why would I not get the cheaper DA 70/2.4 if I thought it were equivalent? Why don't I get the Sigma 85/1.4 which has a nice focal lens, HSM and seems to be very, very sharp? Because I believe that the FA 77/1.8 might have something to offer regarding rendering that neither of the aforementioned lenses offers. I'm still undecided regarding the Sigma 85/1.4 vs the FA 77, but I've seen enough from both FA 77/1.8 and DA 70/2.4 to know that I personally would prefer the FA 77/1.8. Your mileage apparently varies.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
One of the nice things about owning both is that I don't have a dog in the show you seem to be trying to run, and so can make a logical judgement of the lenses in question based on the qualities of both.
I enjoy the same advantage: I don't have a dog in the show. I don't own either lens. I argued before that while first experience is irreplaceable one can still form an opinion about lenses without owning them, given all the sample images and even FA 77/1.8 vs DA 70/2.4 comparisons available.

Again, I hope you confused me with someone else.

Last edited by Class A; 05-09-2011 at 10:03 PM.
05-09-2011, 10:28 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
you really got some issues regarding acceptance of being wrong or having no idea
I'm not wrong about the topic at hand.

1) FA 77 advantage is mostly seen on film.
2) Digital sensors are apt to flare more with designed-for-film lenses. This is why the DA 70 handles backlit scenes better. I was getting at this with the digital sensor vs. film thing.
3) Although I don't really care about SD cards, I think it's generally a good idea to leave 10% free if possible to avoid corruption. Furthermore i *do* delete photos from my card before filling it up (avoid HD wear on my laptop), so fragmentation *can* be an issue. If it does not affect lifespan it could still affect speed.

I'm just sick of re-explaining things.
05-10-2011, 04:40 AM   #101
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Don't bother re-explaining.
Don't bother asserting points that others constantly dispute.
We all have opinions, and are going to differ even on the value and preference on factual details.
The FA 77 obviously has a film advantage as the DA 70 is not really used on film cameras.
This is not the point.
In fact I don't know what is anymore.
Time to close this overdone thread...
05-10-2011, 04:55 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Don't bother re-explaining.
Don't bother asserting points that others constantly dispute.
We all have opinions, and are going to differ even on the value and preference on factual details.
The FA 77 obviously has a film advantage as the DA 70 is not really used on film cameras.
This is not the point.
In fact I don't know what is anymore.
Time to close this overdone thread...
That's one thing everyone should agree on!

This whole thread has become a train wreck that you can't look away from. Some people prefer the 70, some people prefer the 77. Who cares at this point? As far as I recall, the one thing almost everyone agrees on is that neither lens is bad! I've owned both, at the same time, and decided to keep the 77 mostly because price wasn't an issue, I wanted the extra speed and actually preferred it's slightly larger size. End of story (for me anyway).
05-10-2011, 04:59 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by dgaies Quote
I've owned both, at the same time, and decided to keep the 77 mostly because price wasn't an issue, I wanted the extra speed and actually preferred it's slightly larger size. End of story (for me anyway).
Makes perfect sense, said this all along. No preference here. Each lens has its strengths.
05-10-2011, 07:14 AM   #104
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Interesting update (note the LCA test -- and the DA70 is much better than the FA77 in this regard): Pentax SMC DA 70mm f/2.4 Limited - Review / Lab Test

Cheers!

Abbazz
05-10-2011, 07:24 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
This is a little dogmatic. I would agree with you if you were comparing the 21 to the 31, or (more appropriately) the 40 to the 43. But the 70 and 77 are very close *on digital*. The DA 70 is easily the best of the DA limiteds (in my book).

77 makes sense if:

1) You want f1.8.
2) You shoot film.
I will disagree with you on this one. The DA 35mm LTD is there with the DA 70mm. However, they have different purposes.
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