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07-26-2011, 04:28 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Two flaws here:

1) You do it because the other guy does and uses it to spur both main body sales and other after market sales. Canikon did it with the 35 FL and now the 50's regardless of one's appreciation of the FL in APS-land (it's a short portrait or whatever...it's something to buy).

If you do NOT do it, you're burned because it makes the whole brand worth less compared to the competition. The profit margin factors in only if you have unit sales to begin with. If I am a dealer and I have a brand that sells a kit with 2 zooms and 2 budget primes, this is better than the brand with only 1 budget prime. Which one gets more push?

It has always been thus.

2) There is far too much emphasis on the availability of manual focus lenses as market alternatives. The reality is these make no $$$ for Pentax and a tiny, tiny fraction of purchasers out there care about manual focus at all. All the new money is made on AF.

Pentax has been all over the map with lens production at market price points. There is zero consistency in development and placement. The DA 35/2.4 was likely deliberately kept slower than the competition to not impact sales of the DA 35/2.8 Macro. Pentax looked to be releasing a high-end range, but the market turned and now low-cost lenses are the rage and Pentax is behind the competition, and that an only affect unit sales. It's a rock and hard place problem because a cheaper, slightly slower 50 will cannibalize sales of both the FA 50 and the DA*55.

It has always been thus.
Pentax is in no market position to offer every lens that Canikon does. That is the road to bankruptcy.

It has always been thus.

That is not the company niche.

It has always been thus.

07-26-2011, 05:06 PM   #77
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the problem is that the limited line up is pretty slow, and apparently, that means the consumer stuff needs to be incredibly slow.

Silly logic. I hope Rioch has some sense about them. There is much more to a lens then speed alone.
07-26-2011, 05:58 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Pentax is in no market position to offer every lens that Canikon does. That is the road to bankruptcy.

It has always been thus.

That is not the company niche.

It has always been thus.
Pentax offers mid-range bodies and as the market turns to complementary budget primes, so too must Pentax, or sales of K-r's dry up.

The previous Pentax angle was sell a cheap body and make up the difference in higher-margin glass. That option no longer works unless you keep budget buyers relegated to price point conscious zooms or manual focus legacy glass (teeny tiny market demand).

The surest way to kill K-r sales is to fall behind a budget lens array compared to Canikon. A budget 50 is low-risk, low-hanging fruit. It will come.
07-26-2011, 06:51 PM   #79
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K-r sales will die in a few months regardless of what happens to the lens lineup.

07-26-2011, 07:47 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Pentax offers mid-range bodies and as the market turns to complementary budget primes,
Whose to say "the market" is going to turn to complementary budget primes? Or if does, that won't just be a passing fancy?

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The surest way to kill K-r sales is to fall behind a budget lens array compared to Canikon
But this implies that budget consumers (those who buy the entry DSLRs) are choosing Canikon because of the budget lens offered therein. How plausible is that? Don't the vast majority of entry-level DSLR consumers buy a kit lens (i.e., cheap zoom lens) or two and nothing beyond? And if budget primes are so important, why does Nikon's entry level cameras not even autofocus many of the cheapest primes in Nikon's lineup?
07-26-2011, 09:12 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
Silly logic. I hope Rioch has some sense about them. There is much more to a lens then speed alone.
Me too, I'd really like to see some high end glass come out of this.
07-26-2011, 10:57 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
But this implies that budget consumers (those who buy the entry DSLRs) are choosing Canikon because of the budget lens offered therein. How plausible is that? Don't the vast majority of entry-level DSLR consumers buy a kit lens (i.e., cheap zoom lens) or two and nothing beyond? And if budget primes are so important, why does Nikon's entry level cameras not even autofocus many of the cheapest primes in Nikon's lineup?
Right. I keep seeing people wondering about 18-250 zooms, not about primes.
07-27-2011, 03:39 AM   #83
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Most people never get even a mild case of LBA. There are several stages that people go through when buying lenses.

1. Use the kit lens.
2. Buy a slow telephoto to go with it.
3. Get a superzoom and use that almost exclusively.
4. Buy fast (f2.8) zooms.
5. Buy a prime (or two or three).

Most people never get past level one or two. Pentaxians tend to get level five before they go through the earlier stages, but still, the fact remains that few people get lots of glass, in particular primes. The concept of a single focal length lens in a zoom society is pretty foreigh.

07-27-2011, 05:06 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Whose to say "the market" is going to turn to complementary budget primes? Or if does, that won't just be a passing fancy?



But this implies that budget consumers (those who buy the entry DSLRs) are choosing Canikon because of the budget lens offered therein. How plausible is that? Don't the vast majority of entry-level DSLR consumers buy a kit lens (i.e., cheap zoom lens) or two and nothing beyond? And if budget primes are so important, why does Nikon's entry level cameras not even autofocus many of the cheapest primes in Nikon's lineup?
The market for budget primes exists because Sony, Nikon, and Canon have moved that way.

It is entirely plausible that purchasers opt for these lenses or else the market would not be making them!

The goal is after-market sales for something "better" than the kit, but complementary in price.

It appears to be working.

Nikon's budget bodies work with all AF-S and AF-I lenses of which there is a 35/1.8 and 2 50's at 1.4 and 1.8 and the 85/1.4 and the VR 85/3.5 and 24/1.4, plus the new 40/2.8 macro alongside their 60, 85, and 105 macros. Budget to high-end Nikon covers the range. Bonus: Most of these are FX as well, such as the new 50/1.8 at $220. The 1.4 version is $440 (B&H).

Does a budget 50mm drive sales? Yes. That's why they make them.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 07-27-2011 at 09:55 AM.
07-27-2011, 02:01 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Does a budget 50mm drive sales? Yes. That's why they make them.
I don't see it in practice. Most people buy a camera first. Then they look at what other lenses to get - just look at the questions on this forum. Nobody goes - "I want a cheap 50/1.8 and the body that goes with it". People want to try a prime that is faster than their zoom lenses, but because a prime lens is something alien and scary to them, they're not sure they want to spend a lot to give it a whirl, so they will only go for something under $200. A 50/1.8 is for people that don't know what they want - those people usually buy Canikon anyway because they go for the brand, not for the features.
07-27-2011, 02:14 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I don't see it in practice. Most people buy a camera first. Then they look at what other lenses to get - just look at the questions on this forum. Nobody goes - "I want a cheap 50/1.8 and the body that goes with it". People want to try a prime that is faster than their zoom lenses, but because a prime lens is something alien and scary to them, they're not sure they want to spend a lot to give it a whirl, so they will only go for something under $200. A 50/1.8 is for people that don't know what they want - those people usually buy Canikon anyway because they go for the brand, not for the features.
They just used it a couple of times after the bought it and never use it again because they didn't know how to use it properly. That happens too often in the Canikon camp, to them, the 50/1.8 is good enough to own but not to use. Many of them can only use the auto or scene modes from the camera.
07-27-2011, 08:11 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
They just used it a couple of times after the bought it and never use it again because they didn't know how to use it properly. That happens too often in the Canikon camp, to them, the 50/1.8 is good enough to own but not to use. Many of them can only use the auto or scene modes from the camera.
Th
QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I don't see it in practice. Most people buy a camera first. Then they look at what other lenses to get - just look at the questions on this forum. Nobody goes - "I want a cheap 50/1.8 and the body that goes with it". People want to try a prime that is faster than their zoom lenses, but because a prime lens is something alien and scary to them, they're not sure they want to spend a lot to give it a whirl, so they will only go for something under $200. A 50/1.8 is for people that don't know what they want - those people usually buy Canikon anyway because they go for the brand, not for the features.
These generalizations could apply as much to Pentax users. Pentax owners are no more discerning and particular in their use. The few Pentax camerasI have seen this summer on tourists have all sported the kit lenses, including a fellow on the ferry with a K-5.

What matters is that Canikon (and Sony) have them and Pentax does not.

They sit on dealer shelves or as list items at the B&H website, they get reviewed on DPR amongst other places, they are talked about here and elsewhere, and that's all they have to do to spur sales. The brand as a package appears more complete and that encourages buy-in. A "feature" of Canikon is a full set of...everything. Probably the biggest feature of all.

And, yes, you DO see it in sales. This is why Pentax has 5% market share.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 07-28-2011 at 04:39 AM.
07-27-2011, 08:54 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Th


What matters is that Canikon (and Sony) have them and Pentax does not.

... they get reviewed on DPR amongst other places, they are talked about here and elsewhere, and that's all they have to do to spur sales. The brand as a package appears more complete and that encourages buy-in. A "feature" of Canikon is a full set of...everything. Probably the biggest feature of all.

And, yes, you DO see it in sales. This is why Pentax has 5% market share.
.


Yes - and same effect from FF.



(random image inserted to pretty-up the thread)


Personally I see a cheap fast-50 as an effective gateway drug to more expensive fast primes or constant-aperture zooms. In that regard it's a smart offering.


.

Last edited by jsherman999; 07-27-2011 at 09:31 PM.
07-27-2011, 08:55 PM   #89
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Interesting thread, here is my 2 cents.

Canikon has economy of scale. They can make damned cheap primes. Nikon just launched a 40mm f2.8 1:1 Macro lens for USD275! Nikon 40 mm f/2.8G AF-S DX Micro-Nikkor Lens 2200 B&H Photo.

While Pentax cannot do this, it has to focus on niche, which is in high quality built material, smaller lens sizes, better IQ, etc. etc. to make money. So hence the Limiteds. And comparing Pentax Limiteds with Canon L or Nikon G lenses, I would believe the Limiteds are still cheaper while giving comparable IQ. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here).

So it seems like Pentax is in a pretty interesting position, which is while it is not exactly cheap to start (if you need AF 50mm primes), it is still very competitive in the semi-pro/pro prime category.
07-27-2011, 09:07 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Most people never get past level one or two. Pentaxians tend to get level five before they go through the earlier stages, but still, the fact remains that few people get lots of glass, in particular primes. The concept of a single focal length lens in a zoom society is pretty foreigh.
Really funny you mention that. I went from 1 --> 5 --> 2. I don't want to have to do 3 .
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