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08-28-2011, 08:09 PM   #31
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I am desperately trying to scramble up enough dough and insanity to justify forking out >$2K for the Voigt that used to cost $500 when a Leica macro that used to cost ~$4000 can be had for under $1300!

Somebody help!

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Can anyone give a coherent reason why people do this and why do Nikon shooters pay >3K for this lens when they can just adapt the Leica and get results that are as good or better?


Last edited by DanielT74; 08-28-2011 at 10:08 PM.
08-28-2011, 11:00 PM   #32
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Because the Voigtlander is a lot better than the overrated Leica.
08-28-2011, 11:55 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
for this lens when they can just adapt the Leica and get results that are as good or better
the Leica-R APO-Macro-Elmarit 100mm f/2.8 isn't a true 1:1 macro lens,you need an accessory (and almost impossible to find) lens that screws into the front of the lens that enables it to focus at 1:1.

the main reasons Nikon photographers are preferring the voigtlander is the fact that it has full F mount compatibility, meaning you can use I-TTL flash and you also get the versatility of the voigtlander's 1:1 macro ability - without the hassle of easily lost or forgotten (and left-at-home) add on lenses.
08-29-2011, 02:31 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Because the Voigtlander is a lot better than the overrated Leica.
Really? Not according to the tests at least. Have you tried both of them?

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
the Leica-R APO-Macro-Elmarit 100mm f/2.8 isn't a true 1:1 macro lens,you need an accessory (and almost impossible to find) lens that screws into the front of the lens that enables it to focus at 1:1.

the main reasons Nikon photographers are preferring the voigtlander is the fact that it has full F mount compatibility, meaning you can use I-TTL flash and you also get the versatility of the voigtlander's 1:1 macro ability - without the hassle of easily lost or forgotten (and left-at-home) add on lenses.

Yes, the Leica is 1:2, but how often do we really need to get closer? Besides people have reported that there is no loss of IQ with the APO macro attachment and even with the 2x attachment to make it a 200mm macro. I agree that there is extra convenience in having this 1:1 capacity though.

So l-TTL is the main reason to pay more than double?

I suspect Leica is better built and will outlast the Voigt. As for sharpness, they are both as sharp as a current full-frame digital can resolve but the next generation may show up more differences between them.

08-29-2011, 03:05 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
Really? Not according to the tests at least. Have you tried both of them?
I owned the Voigtlander and I did try out the Zeiss briefly.
I take so called "tests" with a grain of salt.
The biggest shortcoming of the Zeiss imo is precisely because it cannot go to 1:1 magnification on it's own. For a macro lens that can only achieve 1:2 that is a shortcoming when compared to modern macro lenses that can achieve lifesize magnification unaided and it is frankly expensive, no matter what it's pedigree. I've done lots of close-up photography and to me there is a big gap between 1:2 and 1:1 especially when I don't usually crop my images.

I dare say you've probably never even handled the Voigtlander, because if you did you'd know the lens is extremely well built and you wouldn't be making claims that the Leica is better built or will outlast the Voigtlander.
I enclose a shot taken with the Voigtlander awhile back. It was one of several that was used in a desktop calendar.

08-29-2011, 03:46 AM   #36
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Hi Dennis,

Thanks for replying and for the shot. It's beautiful but doesn't quite answer why Leica is over-rated. Nor is your saying "I take the so-called tests with a grain of salt" more convincing than the tests themselves. You made a claim, can you back it up?

As for construction, I have read several Voigt users compain of the "rattling" noise. Having used a bunch of old Leica lenses and having read about them surviving years of use (and sometimes abuse) I am skeptical that Cosina can match that quality of build in a $500 lens, although I will be happy to be proven wrong.
08-29-2011, 05:13 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
the Leica is 1:2, but how often do we really need to get closer?
you should ask that question to yeatzee.

QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
So l-TTL is the main reason to pay more than double?
Nikon CLS is a very good reason to use I-TTL - it certainly isn't infallible it has the same pitfalls as most pseudo TTL systems do but it's better than P/E-TTL (II) flash Canon and Pentax by a longshot.

QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
Besides people have reported that there is no loss of IQ with the APO macro attachment and even with the 2x attachment to make it a 200mm macro.
All 2X converters degrade the IQ from a lens in some way no matter how well they were made, also don't forget the Voigtlander has 9 aperture blades Vs 8 blades used in the Leica - which can have a significant effect on bokeh and OOF highlight rendition.

I sympathise with your comment about the build quality of cosina products, I own perhaps a handful of Voigtlander M lenses that I use every now and then - the Nokton 35mm f/1.2 being my favourite lens to use on my M9 from Voigtlander because of how similar it's rendering is to Leica lenses. Comparing the construction quality to my professional grade Canon, Pentax and Nikon lenses Leica is in a class of it's own, but the cosina/voigtlander 125mm f/2.5 Lanthar is significantly better built than most mass produced 35mm SLR lenses these days. Cosina lenses are a bit less robust than Hexanon-M lenses which are on par with Zeiss*. With my own use of the Voigtlander 125mm f/2.5 SL on my Nikon D3s its construction matches the D3s superbly. The Nikkor 105mm f/2.8G ED VR looks like a bit of a joke when you place the Voigtlander lens next to it.

*There are some Zeiss aficionados who are going to have me drawn-and quartered for saying that, as good as they are lets face it: Zeiss has slipped over the years. Is there ever going to be a Digital Ikon? I have tried the Zeiss makro planar 100mm f/2 - I didn't like it because it wasn't apochromatic which was a complete deal breaker for me. WTF Zeiss?!? a Non- Apochromatic 1:2 macro with a fast f/2 aperture?!?!

Last edited by Digitalis; 08-29-2011 at 05:33 AM.
08-29-2011, 07:38 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
Hi Dennis,

Thanks for replying and for the shot. It's beautiful but doesn't quite answer why Leica is over-rated. Nor is your saying "I take the so-called tests with a grain of salt" more convincing than the tests themselves. You made a claim, can you back it up?
Unlike yourself, I don't base my opinions solely on the basis of lens tests posted on the internet but on actual usage. I've used Leica cameras and lenses in the course of my work many years ago so I think I have a fair idea of what I'm saying.

QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
As for construction, I have read several Voigt users compain of the "rattling" noise. Having used a bunch of old Leica lenses and having read about them surviving years of use (and sometimes abuse) I am skeptical that Cosina can match that quality of build in a $500 lens, although I will be happy to be proven wrong.
Well you can continue to believe what you like about Cosina's ability to produce quality products but if you've never even owned or used a Voigtlander lens how can you in all seriousness even come to such a view.

08-29-2011, 10:28 AM   #39
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Wow, can you actually believe it?
Owners of Pentax bodies paying $2,000-plus for a lens originally costing $500?
And some, as yet unidentified, owners say it “rattles”?
What this world is coming to when strange, ridiculous occurrences like this happen?

Oh, wait…
I remember reading about some K-7 and K-5 owners telling us these camera bodies rattle when shaken.
Makes me wonder why anyone purchases them, LOL.
Nevermind, I now know it’s caused by the electro-magnets in the SR system not holding the SR system in a steady-state when the power is not turned on.
I don’t shake my camera bodies. Perhaps if I dropped one, I would.
Which reminds me, a classic drop camera-pick it up-shake it takes place in one of my favorite comedic movies:
Captain Ron. If you haven’t yet seen this movie, you should rent it ASAP.

Oh, wait, yet again…
The very first brand new car I purchased was a 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 XL, 2-doors, red outside, red interior, and with the 427 CI, 2-four barrel carb, 425 HP engine. It was a terrible car. It ate rear tires for an afternoon snack. It’s dinner entrée was the slicks I put on the rear wheels when I raced it at Fremont and Half Moon Bay.
If I didn’t feather the clutch just right when getting that 4,200 pound behemoth off the line, it stripped the cluster gear for its afternoon BBQ party meal. In its defense, it did win lots of drag races, though.
At Hot August Nights, a few of weeks ago, a current owner of one of these cars told me they are now selling for in excess of 90-thousand US Dollars.
What this world is coming to when strange, ridiculous occurrences like this happen?

Oh, wait, that’s not all…
There’s this company, the Barratt Jackson Auction Company, where hundreds and hundreds of vehicles are sold at astronomical prices, compared to what they cost new. One of their auctions is even held in Arizona, the home of Pentax Forums, during approximately the third week of January.

Perhaps, in order to understand current selling prices of certain items, one needs to have the money to participate in the game, which is why I believe someone wanting to purchase a Voigtlander 125 should have a really good sense of humor and… “money to burn”, LOL.


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08-29-2011, 03:26 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Unlike yourself, I don't base my opinions solely on the basis of lens tests posted on the internet but on actual usage. I've used Leica cameras and lenses in the course of my work many years ago so I think I have a fair idea of what I'm saying.



Well you can continue to believe what you like about Cosina's ability to produce quality products but if you've never even owned or used a Voigtlander lens how can you in all seriousness even come to such a view.
Again, you've provided no justification that Leica is over-rated.

As for the quality, I don't know so I am not making claims, just doubting that they are on a par with Leica who are renowned for their QC.

I believe on the basis of pictures I've seen and recommendations of experienced users that the Voigt is a fine lens to rival the best - I am not disputing that. I am wondering if it is worth the price tag when the competition is much cheaper. That's all.
08-29-2011, 03:28 PM   #41
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Steve (RayGunn)

Sorry, mate, I've given my view. If you want to ridicule it - go right ahead.

Good luck with your sale.
08-29-2011, 04:37 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
I suspect Leica is better built and will outlast the Voigt
For future reference I will inform you that the R3 to R7 Leica R system SLR bodies were not made by Leica - they were made by Minolta, and many of those cameras still command decent prices and are typically in excellent condition after all these years. So, if you are going to cast aspersions and place doubts on the quality of a manufacturers products without first hand experience of those products you are just sowing disinformation.
08-29-2011, 04:54 PM   #43
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Digitalis, I know (not just the bodies but some lenses too - in any case it is irrelevant because we are talking about the APO macro 100mm here which was built in Germany) and I am not casting aspersions or sowing disinformation. Earlier you replied to the same comment by saying:

"I sympathise with your comment about the build quality of cosina products" so I am not sure what has happened since or where the bee in your bonnet has come from.

I said "I suspect" and you can say that you don't share this suspicion. You have much more experience having used the lenses and I am always interested in hearing and seeing what you share. The fact is that Leica build is tested by time and Cosina Voigtlander isn't yet (to the same extent). It may well prove to be excellent I don't know. We shall see.
08-29-2011, 06:41 PM   #44
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Sorry you feel I ridiculed your post. However…

Hi Daniel…
Sorry you feel I ridiculed your post. However…

In your post to this thread, Post #31, you said (typed):
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
I am desperately trying to scramble up enough dough and insanity to justify forking out >$2K for the Voigt that used to cost $500 …
followed by
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
Can anyone give a coherent reason why people do this…?
Since there is, more than likely, more than one reason, perhaps I should just have listed some of them.
For example:
1. Because the person can.
2. Bragging rights.
3. The “thrill of the chase”.
4. For eBay auctions, the “win” over others. (Interestingly, this has become automated, now.)

But no matter what the reason, in order to command a high price, the item being sold must have an intrinsic value equal to the selling price or people wouldn’t make the purchase.
In the end, the selling price of an item is what someone is willing to pay, no more, no less.

I have a question for you, Daniel…
Why did you make an offer to purchase the lens, indicating you could afford to do so; and subsequently post, in Post #31 of this thread:
QuoteOriginally posted by DanielT74 Quote
I am desperately trying to scramble up enough dough and insanity to justify forking out >$2K for the Voigt that used to cost $500 …
which indicates to me you really could not afford to follow through on your offer to purchase.

Better yet, why did you make an offer to purchase this lens when, in your words, the Voigt 125 is a $500 lens and has some reported rattling problems?

I just don’t get what your agenda is, Daniel.

RayGunn
08-29-2011, 06:50 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
the Voigtlander 125mm f/2.5 is a truly superlative lens, and it has become a bit of a modern "cult" Lens. The price is high because of it's remarkable optical characteristics.Prices for the FA*200mm f/4 ED Macro go even higher.
Yeah, but he did say A* and the FA* and as you well know the FA* has af to boot in addition to the focal length and working distance not to mention 1:1. That aside, I would like a Voigt 125, but not at these kind of prices. I don't think the A* and FA* 200 lenses are going for 3x what they did when in production.
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